Myles McCutcheon (00:00):

If you're trying to win a Super Bowl, if you're trying torace a Stanley Cup and you are seen as somebody who's on TikTok creating thingswith a bunch of other stuff and you're not putting up those Ws, I think yourfan base will turn on you because they'll see why you investing in yourInstagram reels and not putting the ball in the basket. That said, I thinkthere's probably an opportunity to find a balance, and I don't know what thatis right now, but you're here to win

Cole Heilborn (00:26):

On this podcast. We go behind the scenes with industryexperts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works.If you're seeking insights from some of the sharpest minds of the industry,this is your guidebook to producing creative work that actually delivers.Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with MylesMcCutchen. He's the director of content and the Vancouver Canucks sports andEntertainment. Myles. Welcome.

Myles McCutcheon (00:50):

Thank you. Thank you Cole for having me. I'm lookingforward to our conversation today.

Cole Heilborn (00:53):

Likewise, it's great to always get to chat with theneighbors up to the north. You and I are not that far away from each otherabout 50 miles as the crow flies, but we're in two separate countries.

Myles McCutcheon (01:03):

We share the same weather pattern as you can see. I'm sure

Cole Heilborn (01:06):

We do. Yeah,

Myles McCutcheon (01:07):

The gloomy days of fall and winter are upon us.

Cole Heilborn (01:11):

I'm pretty sure the same rain drop that hit your windowjust hit mildly drop. Exactly. Well, today we're going to be diving into alittle bit of a compare and contrast episode. I think it's great. Anytime theoutdoor industry kind of gets to look outside its own four walls Totally andsee what are other people doing in this world of content and media and thesports world is similar, it's adjacent, but it is different and I'm excited tohave Myles on the show today to help us compare and contrast what is someonewho works with content at a sports team, how do you think about content versusthe outdoor industry? And for our format today, I was hoping we could kind ofjust work through a number of topics and hear your thoughts on these varioustopics. They range from everything from audience behavior to how you thinkabout engagement to different channels to social impact and all the things thatwe consider when we look at content. But I think it could be really fascinatingto just see how you guys do it differently or maybe the ways that we do itsimilarly.

Myles McCutcheon (02:11):

Yeah, I love this. I love the opportunity here. It'ssomething that's on my mind often as a fan of a lot of the outdoor industry andthe work that's being done by so many brands and frankly athletes these days.But what are the comparables and what can we learn from each other? There's alot I'd love to peel from the outdoor industry and more extreme sports so tospeak, and I'm sure there's some crossover with traditional if we want to getinto those kind of channels of traditional sports and top four sports and allthis kind of stuff, which I think is somewhat dated but still referenced byindustry standards and stuff like that. It should be fun.

Cole Heilborn (02:45):

Yeah. What's one of the biggest things that you hope youcan learn by looking outside of your four walls?

Myles McCutcheon (02:53):

I think I admire and look to for outdoor or extreme sportsor whatever you want to call them, is the level of stoke and the level ofindividual fan kind of affinity. Whether it's watching an athlete hucksomething down a mountain or on a bike or some skis or something like that, butjust the amount of stoke that's in end and how that kind of resonates with mepersonally at least. And I know that's obvious with other fans of the sportsand stuff like that. What we can learn from that in more mainstream sports isimportant and I think there's ways in and certain teams and brands and playersare starting to step into that direction, but there's a lot of kind ofsimilarities and differences I think between the main sports and outdoorsports. And some of it is viewing habits and some of it is I think rooted inculture so to speak, coming from Canada, hockey night in Canada was a Saturdaynight program that anybody in the seventies eighties would sit down with theirparents and watch it was must watch television.

(03:59):

There wasn't other options out there. Obviously disruptedmassively with the onset of the digital age and stuff like that and how we growbrands and how we grow the sport and how we continue to engage with audienceslooking to those outdoor brands who do things a little differently and alwayshave maybe because they had to be scrappy when they were more upstarted maybebecause their audiences were much more, I dunno, cult focused. The skateaudience to me is fascinating because of how much they get into the sports andhow hardcore it is. Taking cues from some of the stuff that you're seeing fromthose cultures is something I'm stoked on trying to figure out if that makessense.

Cole Heilborn (04:44):

That's really interesting. No, it does make sense. And itinteresting you say that because I almost look at the world of sports and Ialmost feel like I see more of that stoke and that following that sports teamsgenerate. And do you see the difference between the idea of an individualversus a team? Is that what you're alluding to or something else?

Myles McCutcheon (05:04):

I think large top four North American sports have hugebrand affinity because of the scale in which they're talking to. Right. What Ifind interesting about outdoor sports is you watch something like Supernaturalor a rampage or something like that and there's a very core niche audience, butthey're very dedicated to it. How do you grow that audience in the outdoorrealm and how do you on the flip side, take that really vested fan, which forus would be what I'm sure for many teams is your true hardcore fan, whichliterally will listen to every word the media says. Every word the coach says,every word the player says, we'll come to so many games or watch as many gamesas they can on broadcast or digital. How can we go beyond that in a more socialrealm to keep that engagement going? I don't know. It's kind of fascinating andI see this kind of van that kind of comes together in outdoor sports andtraditional sports and this kind of closing of the van and what's this kind ofsweet spot in the middle?

Cole Heilborn (06:11):

Interesting. Well, yeah, let's continue. I guess the firstcategory let's just talk about is the audience. When you think about theaudience for a sports team like the Canucks, how do you think about them?

Myles McCutcheon (06:23):

Obviously we have segmentation and we look at how we canapproach and communicate with that segmentation. We have a huge fan base herein Vancouver. It's the original expansion team and it's been around for 50 plusyears now. A hockey market north of the border is an unreal thing to be a partof just because of it's part of the Canadian culture. And I was listening todayon the radio on the way in of them talking about the difference between a USmarket and a Canadian market and players wanting to play in certain places andstuff like that. And just the love this country has for that sport is a hugelypowerful thing. So that's to say our audiences is educated, they know thissport inside out. They know that the nuances of play, they know the nuances ofconversation, they know what words and semantics are used and they're whipsmart when it comes to the game itself.

(07:20):

So being hyper aware of that is kind of key for us becausewe're not getting anything past them. So finding ways to ensure that we'retalking to 'em where they're at and not talking down to them they don't knowthe sport. You may have to in a different market. Utah for example, as a newhawken club this year, you may in that market, even though it's more of awinter town and state, have to educate the fans a little bit more about thegame and use different language and stuff like that where here you don't haveto do that. These fans know what they want and we have to meet them wherethey're at. So it's a nice kind of balancing act to include trying to includenew fans into the game, which obviously every team wants to do, but also makingsure we're doing our fans are solid.

Cole Heilborn (08:10):

So that word that gets thrown around is authenticity inthe outdoor space, is that a word that you use or is it just inherentlyauthentic because everyone gets it

Myles McCutcheon (08:20):

If we didn't put something out that wasn't authentic,definitely fans would definitely recognize that. And I don't have an example ofwhat that could be or something we've done that, but it's true authenticity iskey for us and hopefully most sports teams as well because diehard fans aregoing to sniff it out if it's inauthentic or off-brand or whatnot. So findingways to make sure that that true tone of voice is there is key.

Cole Heilborn (08:50):

How many fans do you have when you think about theaudience a whole, how many people,

Myles McCutcheon (08:56):

If you think of we're looking at three and a half millionfans in British Columbia. I not sure what the province's population is, butit's a large fan base. And I'm just talking about BC alone and we know Canucksfans spread across Canada and we see them in the states that every game wetravel on the road, there's a good section of supporters. Often I'll see signsfrom Dallas or something and what's cool about seeing some of those fans issure they may be transplant, they may be a family that's moved there orsomething. But we've also talked to fans who are like, I'm a hockey fan and I'dlove the Canucks. I was born and raised in Dallas, I'm 15 years old. I can'texplain why I am a fan of your team, but here I am at the game with a sign witha shirt, hoping to get a stick from one of the players. And it's really rad tosee that kind of fandom because it's fascinating to me that people pick up onteams like this when they're not a part of the local culture, not part of thelocal demographic, but pick up a sport because of something they saw. And Ithink part of that is key to growing the game as well.

Cole Heilborn (10:06):

So I can see a number of advantages having three and ahalf million people all kind of ingrained in the culture of hockey and as youwere saying, knowing the ins and outs, right? So there's not that educationthat you typically or sometimes have to do for sports. So there's a lot ofadvantages there I think when it comes to content. But what are some potentialguardrails or restrictions that from a content perspective that prevents youfrom exploring because everyone is so familiar with the sport?

Myles McCutcheon (10:34):

That's a great question. I think, and you would probablyfind this in a lot of mainstream sport markets where a fan affinity is sky highand the knowledge is sky high, you have to be careful what you say like it orlump it. Media will pick up on words and use them against you even if your bestintention was not what that word was used for. So you really have to bescrupulous on how you look at your language because they could read things thataren't there. I would think it's similar to a celebrity and a publicist workingwith a celebrity and being very select in the words just because they can bemisconstrued and it can spiral and that's how, I dunno, rumors start or that'show radio will have to feel 60 minutes of air because of a couple misused wordsor words that were meant to mean one thing, but they took it as another way. Soit's attention to detail and it's something that we put a high premium on here,whether it's in communication or whether it's in content and because the fansare also really invested and to back to your point on authenticity, we can'tskewer too far one way or the other because they'll pick up on that as well. I

Cole Heilborn (11:54):

Skew in what way?

Myles McCutcheon (11:56):

If you are mired in a streak where you may not be payingyour best games and you may have had a few losses or something like that andyou're putting out content that screams, look at how great we are at goalscoring, look at how solid our team is and stuff like that. There's amisalignment from the product to the message. And I mean I think we do a goodjob of managing that, but I think a lot of teams do as well. And that'sprobably from just past history, knowing that sports fans are damn passionate,man. They are hardcore and they love their games and their teams and if you areslightly misaligned from your brand or what's happening, they will pick up onthat.

Cole Heilborn (12:48):

I guess what you're maybe alluding to is a challenge thatmaybe we don't consider in the outdoor space if your brand is the team andtheir performance in a season or in a game. So is that brand always shiftingand from a content perspective you have to be shifting that content?

Myles McCutcheon (13:06):

No, our brand itself is solid. I think it's thecommunications and how we message around it. A lot of what's content is insports is yeah, sure there's content marketing a hundred percent. There's brandmarketing, there's ticket marketing and evergreen kind of membership membermarketing and stuff like that. But your daily always on machine is there aswell. And that's where those nuances I think are really important becausethat's the stuff that gets picked up. That's the stuff that people share, retweet,quote, look at scrutinize and stuff like that. So while your brand is stillthis rock solid piece of granite, if you stray from that kind of tone of voiceor some of the communications within there a little bit even by accident,that's where I think you can step in it a bit.

Cole Heilborn (13:53):

I see. Gotcha. What type of content do sports teamstypically put out? What do you guys put out that works well that maybe isdifferent than the outdoor world?

Myles McCutcheon (14:03):

I think every team is slightly different based on theirpriorities, their business priorities. Where we pride ourselves is high qualitysocial first content. We are very active during games. Our social team isincredibly, incredibly strong and smart and they work really well with my team,which is the producers, the shooters, the editors and photographers and stufflike that. And it's this wonderful little synergy during a live game where weare working back and forth in communication the whole time sharing moments,highlights, clipping together, a small pack of five saves you see within a twominute penalty kill that potentially our game saving saves a goalie makes andputting that out to your audience in near real time is what a way that we kindof differentiate. We also look to help communicate the team message. So there'sinterviews with players with hockey operations. The Canucks are deeply investedwithin the community here and I think probably one of the strongest, if not thestrongest in the league and how we work with our community and community groupsand stuff like that.

(15:15):

So we do a lot of community work too and whether that'shighlighting some of our key beneficiaries, players going to visit sickchildren in a hospital, the organization itself helping at a food bank or puttogether some housing for those in need and stuff like that, that's other formsof content that we get out there. And lastly, all of the content marketing. Sowhen we're stepping towards the playoffs, we will have a playoff based spotthat's full of stoke and hype and make sure you don't miss it. If you can't gettickets, you better be watching on TV or upfront cheering or a season launchcampaign. It is typical to most teams. Some teams work with outside agenciesfor that kind of stuff. We tend to keep all that in-house.

Cole Heilborn (15:58):

Tell me more about, so like a game is happening, what isyour team doing and how are you guys simultaneously shooting and then cuttingthat and publishing that? That seems ridiculous.

Myles McCutcheon (16:09):

It's fascinating. It's fascinating to watch and it'ssomething I'm pretty proud of the team here for kind of picking up and workingwell together. So a good grief. So we have two to three producer editors, wecall 'em producers here on each game, a couple photographers. Our social teamis three to four up in the media box where sometimes I sit as well. And there'slargely, we have a run a show obviously of things that we want to capture,pregame and things we want to highlight during the game. If we know celebritiesin the stands or if we know there's a kid from a community that we want tohighlight, we make sure that that's in there at a certain timestamp and we haveto have a photographer there when they have to share that back to our socialteam so they can post at a time at a proper time.

(16:58):

But during the game itself, it's following the play likebroadcast would and when moments happen, we're in a very robust and livelygroup chat alongside an editor that is watching the broadcast who can do quickclips from the broadcast to share a great goal. He can get out immediately, butalso if we're filming and it's a breakaway goal or something like that, thatproducer who captures it often or usually will be like, yeah, I got the greatshot and we'll instantly throw the card into the laptop, quick, edit it, throwthe light on it, fire it off to social and they'll get it out within a coupleminutes. So it's fascinating to watch in the benefit of having a coupleshooters is you lessen the chance that if it's a back toback goal, you missthat, but there's times where we have to bite the bullets. It's sports, youdon't know what's going to happen. You could score twice within 30 seconds andyou just got to take what's given to you. But really it comes down tocommunication. It's

Cole Heilborn (17:59):

Communication. I'm trying to think about the technicalrequirements to pull something like that off. Are your shooters running fromthe ice up to the media box and are they No.

Myles McCutcheon (18:09):

They literally have a laptop with them and they'll turnaround and they'll sit and they'll pop the laptop on their lap and throw thecard and go from there. That's the same with photographers. A couple ofphotographers have game day editors with them that kind of sit behind them andthey'll just flip the card back from the camera to the editor who will quicklythrow a couple color paths on them and upload to our photo shelter. Theplatform we use to share images and social will pull them from there. So prettyseamless. It depends on your wifi. Sometimes we got to hardwire in, we get itto drop a line and go quick, but it's incredibly fast and when I'm talking topeople about joining the team and the requirements and I say it moves fast anda lot of people I worked in film and I worked in commercials and stuff likethat, it's a shock at which the speed at which the game moves and you have toreact. So there's a lot of fun little things producers have to learn quicklywhen they join if they haven't shot live sports before. Aside from the fact thepuck is moving at 140 kilometers an hour,

Cole Heilborn (19:15):

That seems like one of the biggest differences betweensports world and the outdoor world because how many games are in a season foryou?

Myles McCutcheon (19:23):

82 plus playoffs?

Cole Heilborn (19:24):

Yeah. Gosh. So you've got 82 live events that arehappening that you can pull content from.

Myles McCutcheon (19:31):

Totally.

Cole Heilborn (19:31):

I mean forever it seems like the outdoor industry, wemostly produce evergreen content and then there's the occasional race or theevents where there is an event capture that's happening, but it's so differentthan what you're describing. Do you produce much evergreen content or is itmostly real time

Myles McCutcheon (19:51):

Type? We do produce more evergreen content. So let's lookat interviews or community pieces. It's still timely. We're looking at as theseason goes, we're looking at whether it's a theme night or something likethat, celebrating our first Nations community here or if it's, and putting outcontent based around that community, whether it's a logo design or a playermeeting, a first nation elder or something like that and having a robustconversation. You could call that more evergreen for sure, but it does definitelyhave a lifespan based around what those theme nights are. The evergreen stuffwill be more high level content marketing buts and seats, get your tickets nowhere's our brand spot and that kind of thing that would be similar to mosttraditional brands in their seasonality and whatnot.

Cole Heilborn (20:46):

So then do you guys think of yourself as an editorialoutlet or how do you think of yourself?

Myles McCutcheon (20:51):

Editorial will be a part of it, definitely with somewriters and messaging who take care of team messaging and stuff like that onstaff. But I think as part of the marketing team, we're a marketing department.

Cole Heilborn (21:04):

And when it comes to different types of contents, are youguys doing long form storytelling docs? Are you doing what types of contentworks really well?

Myles McCutcheon (21:14):

Great question, and that's one we've kind of pivoted onand it's due to, in my opinion at least how the world has changed in terms oflonger form storytelling. We've opted to stay away from stuff that's longerform so to speak and focus more on the social audience, social first audiencefor a few reasons. One, you're fishing where the fish are on Twitter, onInstagram, on threads nay and stuff like Snapchat, even it's been around for awhile or TikTok as well. You're fishing where the audience is in a way that youcan grow that audience and engage with people in a new way. Longer form stuffto do well takes real effort as you know and a lot of your audience knows. Ittakes real time and it takes a team and when you look at content that may havebeen done 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago for more of a YouTube based audience, the barwasn't as high as it is now and with high level athletes and super high levelproduction companies coming in and doing essentially that same content which isbehind the scenes, which is in the room, which is long form, but to a qualitythat we couldn't imagine because they have three shooters, because they have aline producer, because they have an executive producer, because they have asound person, because they have three editors continually working to make thisstory the best it can be.

(23:02):

We could focus on all that. There's no way we're shootinga game. The teamwork or the size of the team to create something of the qualitythat the audience now expects in those spaces is massive and it's justsomeplace we can't play because we're talking to a broad audience and have alot of messages we have to share. You look at everybody references F1 drive tosurvive. Of course the NHL recently dipped his toes in there with the sameproduction company box to box on their face off series. LeBrons had a doc madeabout him. Steph Curry was doing stuff with Facebook four years ago. These werereally well done pieces. David Beckham documentary is Outlandishly Good, that'shis own production company. That production is not a cheap production to pulloff and that's what audiences really expect now is high quality in the roomkind of stuff. And while we can get in the room, we don't have the access thatwe necessarily want at times because frankly it's a sports team and there's alot of stuff going on and as much as we'd like to get in there, it's not in thebest interest of everybody at times to be in that room.

Cole Heilborn (24:17):

I feel like there's a few things, maybe you're alluding topressed a little deeper then. Do you feel like there's opportunity or therewould be a value in long form but it's maybe just more of the ability to pullit off? Well,

Myles McCutcheon (24:29):

There's definitely a value to it. I believe that where wecurrently sit, we're not staffed to provide, to meet the expectations of theconsumer there on the quality and the length that it takes. Getting 60,000views for a single YouTube video as opposed to 150,000 views for a 45 secondpiece on a player on multiple platforms is you can weigh the differences thereand see where the eggs kind of play, if that's a horrible analogy.

Cole Heilborn (25:11):

No, I hear what you're saying. Maybe that's one thing thatthe outdoor industry does differently is maybe there isn't the expectation thatthe documentaries and long form pieces that get produced have to be at that F1series level of quality. When those things do come out, they're amazing, but Idon't know that everyone expects that level of quality, which is why maybe wecan get by with a small, pretty nimble, scrappy team.

Myles McCutcheon (25:38):

Yeah, I don't know. I see so many great things. I wouldspend hours on Friday and Saturday night watching various outdoor brands andathletes share their longer form stuff look longer form debatable and length.What does that mean? Nine minutes, 20 minutes, 45 an hour and a half. There'sso much quality and creativity going into so much work that's out there. I lookto Arteric and a lot of the work they're doing, it's the storytelling and thedepth of it and the quality and I know often they're not jacked up with a teamof 20 putting some of those things out as probably a couple guys similar to thework you do and some storyboards and some passion and putting it out there, butthere's a quality and a time that stuff probably is not being done over thecourse of two or three days.

Cole Heilborn (26:33):

I don't mean to assume that the quality isn't there, but Ithink when people think of a Netflix documentary, they think of a miniHollywood production,

Myles McCutcheon (26:43):

Totally

Cole Heilborn (26:44):

Scale that way, way down. And then you have somethingthat's happening in the outdoor industry. So it's like the means to pull it offwhile they're still substantial. It's way less than a tour to France unchainedseries.

Myles McCutcheon (26:56):

You know what I would love to see from an outdoor brand,or maybe it's a race series or something, I'm not entirely sure. You look atDrive to Survive, you look at faceoff, you look at a lot of the tennis doc outthere, the sprinting doc out there, I can't remember their names, and it'spersonality based stuff based on the players and their storylines within thosepersonalities and it's building their brands and whatnot as well and drivingpeople to the sport like, oh, sprinting's kind of cool. Look at how these guysare dripped out and all this kind of stuff. Tennis players are wild. Look atwhat they go through. How would that manifest in an outdoor space? How wouldthat manifest over a series of events for mountain biking downhill where you'reliterally cameraed up with four or five folks who are part of the series whereyou're inside the room in every part of their, because we only see the stokeand then we see the bales, but there's shit going on behind the scenes that Ithink will be very valuable and I think will be really insightful and it maystart to trap some of those or attract some of those fans who are notnecessarily fans of that sport because you're like, oh, I just thought the guywas a ripper and who else goes down a mountain that fast at a bike?

(28:10):

He's got to have a screws, but oh my God, he does this tooor that too, or she does this and she does that. Getting into the personalitiesand the deeper storytelling of the athletes themselves over a period of timemay be something that's interesting for fans, maybe not of the sport, maybe notof the sport, I don't know. How do you use a bit of that model in the outdoorspace?

Cole Heilborn (28:32):

A hundred percent. Have you seen the Tour de FranceUnchain

Myles McCutcheon (28:35):

Series? I have not got there yet.

Cole Heilborn (28:37):

So some people don't think that bike is part of outdoor. Iwould consider them the same. Sure. The Tour de France is, it's a wholedifferent level than Rampage. All that to be said.

Myles McCutcheon (28:48):

Totally.

Cole Heilborn (28:49):

That series does exactly what you're describing. Itinterviews various team members. It talks about each stage of the race and theytell the story of a season at a time and it's super fascinating. I think thathappens a little bit in the outdoor world. It's just way smaller. It'softentimes athletes themselves are becoming creators and I mean this has beenhappening for some time now, but you'll see athletes document their journey ortheir progression to an event. But I don't know, maybe what you're describing,what I haven't seen done a whole lot is, yeah, could you capture five or 10athletes and then weave all of their storylines together as they're training

Myles McCutcheon (29:33):

For us? There's competition in there. We may be bros, butthere's still a competitive level in there. And just like in pro sportsathletes are athletes and they're all driven to win regardless of their sport.Whether it happens to be in a superpipe, whether it happens to be on an NFLfield, they're driven to win and you see that, but there's internal competitionor external competition too that's playing down there while maybe high fives.There's got to be storylines within there that you can pull out more that getsa little bit deeper into those weeds that may compel new to audiences to payattention a little bit.

Cole Heilborn (30:14):

Yeah, I love that. Tell me more about platformutilization. Are there certain channels that work really well for you thatmaybe are, I don't know, less, I don't want to say less known. I think we allknow what they are, but is there anything that's a surprise maybe for theoutdoor audience?

Myles McCutcheon (30:29):

So there's this thing Instagram completely. Tell me more.We lean heavily into Instagram as a premium platform. Of course we do targetplatforms specifically. I won't get into details into what kind of content weput on there, but definitely Twitter or X or whatever we're calling it is amore of a messaging platform. There's crossover of course where we'll shareacross and we do tend to focus on creating at least for the specs of thatplatform. That's hugely important in terms of engagement. We know if you've gota phone screen, you want to maximize the screen to your advantage. So throwinga 16 by nine in a reel is probably a disadvantage.

Cole Heilborn (31:15):

Is YouTube in that primary list of platforms or is thatsecondary

Myles McCutcheon (31:20):

Or tertiary? It would be a secondary platform a hundredpercent. And because of the stuff we're creating, which is typically shorter,it doesn't resonate unless it's in shorts, right? Is throwing a minute 30 or aminute 45 piece onto YouTube, half the time the pre-rolls are longer, right? Itdoesn't do yourself favor in. Sure it gets views and engagement and stuff likethat, but again, that audience is also whip smart and they're expecting stuffthat is typically longer. If we have the time, we'll definitely and the contentis worth it. The content has a juice, we'll make a longer edit, but it comesdown to resources and story.

Cole Heilborn (32:06):

One of the series that I've seen on the YouTube channel isI think you just call it micd up.

Myles McCutcheon (32:10):

Yes.

Cole Heilborn (32:11):

Where you mic up coaches or players during training orgames and maybe that's a common thing in the sports world. Certainly is. Yeah.But I don't see that happening much at all in the outdoor world.

Myles McCutcheon (32:22):

I love that. I would love

Cole Heilborn (32:22):

It. Wouldn't that be cool?

Myles McCutcheon (32:23):

I think it's great. And you know what I really dig, wetalked a bit about athlete creators, it's there's quite a few of them now, andthat micd up stuff is great. Stan Ray for example, and his stuff that he doesup at Whistler when he's talking, going down lines an insane skier, but alsohe's talking his way down the woo, this is great. Whoa, look up for the rockthere. Here's some sharks coming up and stuff like that. It's fascinating. Andthat's like troop and the POV engagement is off the charts. It's so awesome.But you're right, I would love to hear some micd ups of some wild andsupernatural or something rampage. I'm sure it's similar to sports andobviously we do our best in the editing suite to make the content compelling,but a 60 minute game is going to net you probably just a couple minutes offootage because a lot of it is attaboy give me the puck, attaboy good work, abunch of expletives. It's not the most engaged. So we do a good job cutting ittogether. But you're right, it is a staple for sports teams.

Cole Heilborn (33:33):

What I think would be neat too is beyond just micing aperson up, if you could mic up a pair of skis or mic up a bike, people love inthe bike world, people love those rot edits where it's just bike noise andtires on dirt. If you could do that for Rampage or hard line or something,maybe it's already done. Maybe I need to do my research, but I think that'd beincredible.

Myles McCutcheon (33:56):

Yeah, there's a few pieces of content. Look, we look to alot of college teams, especially college football teams, the content creatorson those teams. Some of 'em are just freaking amazing. They're young, they'rejust hungry, they're just, they're kids who are in school and just want tocreate really rad work. And often because of the college they have access thatmaybe professional teams don't tour. It's a sport that just has a bit more jumpto it or something. But there's edits out there now of just the sounds ofpractice with incredible footage and it's fast, rapid feet on turf with thecatch of a ball in a hand and then a couple huffs of hard breathing and thenjust shuffles again with sound. And it's fascinating to watch from anengagement standpoint because you're there for the oral aspect of it, butyou're there for the visual aspect of it too. And it just makes you want to sitand watch very similar to as r videos and just like the tranquility or piecethat they bring, these kind of edits are doing that in the same way as well.It's something I think we'll try to experiment with it here.

Cole Heilborn (35:03):

I mean, it makes sense because 50% of video is sound whenyou watch a movie, 50% of the experience is sound. And so on a video firstplatform where sound is muted, we're only experiencing half of what's thepotential. So if we could just lead into that other 50% more. Yeah, there's aworld of other opportunities.

Myles McCutcheon (35:25):

One thing that's been happening is that it's a small trendand it will be interesting to do for a outdoor as well, is miking up fans. Sowhat we've seen is whether it's family members or little kids like watchingtheir dad play or I think in the NHL last year they brought in an NFL playerand a basketball player could have been and sat them right in the front row andthey're obviously not fully in touch with what the sport is. So they'reexperiencing the sport from the front row as the athlete's POV, and oh goodlord, what just happened is he allowed to do that. And it creates these greatconversations and these great moments that were clipped out and used and stufflike that. It was really cool to see. So what happens when you do that withsomething, I don't know, the X Games or something in the super pipe, and youhave fans on the side micd up who are just jaw dropping moments and they'reshowing the exhilaration and the stoke of watching something happen in the pipelive. And so thinking of the social engagement way, clipping that out quicklyand getting it out. And same with micd up. If you could mic up somebody in thepipe or on the course and clip that almost real time and share that in theaudience who's not on the ground, but watching socially, there's a way to scalethat up. Now you've got a Canucksection back to a moment based on somethingthat an athlete just did from their kind of perspective.

Cole Heilborn (36:58):

What about the idea of athletes and creators? And I guessto explain more about what I mean by that, in the outdoor industry, there'sthis, I dunno if it's a question or there's a trend happening where for a longtime brands would produce content purely around their athletes, expeditions,trips, things like that. But now in age of social media, brands are oftentimesand seemingly turning towards creators to lean on them to create content, butthen also to distribute that content on their own platforms, which has leftsome questions about, well, what's the role of athletes in 20 24, 20 25 forbrands and creators? How do those two worlds come together and work? I wouldassume that everything you guys produce is about your athletes. Do you workwith creators in some capacity? We

Myles McCutcheon (37:49):

Will work

Cole Heilborn (37:49):

With

Myles McCutcheon (37:49):

Creators for the majority. We will work with our athletesif we're telling their story, work with them to figure out what that story isand then help tell it. Look, if you're working for a professional hockey orsports team, you've got one mandate and that mandate is to win. And anythingthat can distract from that winning can be seen as a potential flag. So youcould have a team that has a content team or a creator team with them orcreating their own content 24 hours a day. But I would assume that if they'renot in the W column and excelling in that W column, that may be short-lived.Interesting,

Cole Heilborn (38:38):

Because that's almost an expectation I think in theoutdoor world, is that athletes kind of become influencers themselves anddevelop that following and develop that ability to reach people. But on yourside, most athletes stay focused on the sport itself rather than interesting.

Myles McCutcheon (38:57):

And look, they'll flex up and flex down on certain things.And this is I think club agnostic or sport agnostic, but if you're trying towin the Larry O'Brien trophy, if you're trying to win a Super Bowl, if you'retrying to race a Stanley Cup and you are seen as somebody who's on TikTokcreating things with a bunch of other stuff and you're not putting up those Ws,I think your fan base, this is just my opinion, I think your fan base will turnon you because they'll see why you investing in your Instagram reels and notputting the ball in the basket instead of doing what I want you to do, and Ijust want you to win a championship once, and I just want to take part in aparade and I've spent 300 bucks to sit core side and you guys, I really wantvalue for my money. So I think there's a slight difference there. That said, Ithink there's probably an opportunity to find a balance, and I don't know whatthat is right now, but you're here to win.

Cole Heilborn (40:03):

Yeah. Interesting. That seems like a pretty big differenceand maybe one that has a bigger effect than I'm realizing just in this moment.

Myles McCutcheon (40:16):

And that's just speaking with other people I know aroundvarious leagues and stuff like that, Hey, what's your access? What do you getwith this? And they're like, you know what? I'm trying, and I know it lookslike we're getting gold, but I had one ask and it was a gold win and we struckit with that one. But for every 10 times, 20 times I asked to do something, Imet with a no because right now we're focused on A, B, and C.

Cole Heilborn (40:40):

If you want to go and produce something with an athlete,they can tell you no thanks, because I want to focus on the game

Myles McCutcheon (40:46):

For myself. I don't have direct contact with the athletes.I work with our communications team and stuff like that. So yeah, there's a lotof factors that go in and again, the focus is on winning.

Cole Heilborn (40:57):

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. What do you feel like if youcould blend the outdoor world and the sports world around this idea, in aperfect world, what could you

Myles McCutcheon (41:07):

Have in what way?

Cole Heilborn (41:10):

For instance, I was looking at Red Bull's YouTube channeland at the bottom they recommended other channels that are out there andthey've got a whole bunch of mountain bike, YouTube mountain bikers who arealso YouTubers. A lot of athletes are going that route. They're producing theirown content, they're becoming their own brand beyond just winning races andevents. But that seems it's an expectation and for an athlete in order to beable to survive and thrive in the outdoor industry, they kind of almost have todo that. Totally. Do you wish that you had that access to athletes, hockeyplayers to create that type of a personal brand, or is it do my question iskind of muddy here. I know.

Myles McCutcheon (41:53):

Yeah, totally, totally. Selfishly, sure, I'd love to, butI also know I would rather see this team go four rounds in the playoffs and wina Stanley Cup in game seven. And if that meant I didn't get access, I wouldchoose a cup. The emotion, I believe there's three things outside of major lifeevents, birth death, weddings that are cement emotion with inside of us, livesport, live music and travel. Anybody who was in Toronto and was around for thebat flip with Joey Baltista against Texas in game five there remembers thatmoment. I'm talking about it now. I'm still getting chills on my body. That isan emotion that was seeded deeply because of live sport. It's the same. I wentto the heirs tour behind us a while back, and the emotion in that room fromthat live event is something that I don't think it's going to be recreated onthe film they're making of those last shows, but it's something I'll carry withme. And it's the same with travel. The emotion you feel when your team,somebody you've poured all of your attention into caring for when they are doingwell or exceeding expectations or winning the championship is something that Idon't think fans would trade off for a couple extra Mike Ds or hanging out witha player and his wife at the beach.

(43:41):

I think those moments are too big. As much as I'd love to.I'd rather make a 5, 10, 50 minute fill on the road to lifting the Stanley Cupabove our heads.

Cole Heilborn (43:57):

What do you think? I love that. This idea of live sports,live music and travel, those are the three big things outside of other majorlife events that every person needs or craves.

Myles McCutcheon (44:07):

Totally.

Cole Heilborn (44:08):

What do you think the outdoor industry could learn fromthose three disciplines or those three ideas to, I don't know, adopt or maybe

Myles McCutcheon (44:18):

I was thinking about this based on, I think your otherconversation a while back about the crossover between mainstream sports and

Cole Heilborn (44:28):

Was that with Drew

Myles McCutcheon (44:29):

Paul? Yeah, totally. It was great. It was great. It wasawesome. Super smart it was, and audiences and growth of sports and stuff likethat. And I'm trying to think what is the differentiator aside from, like Isaid earlier, hockey night in Canada, much like Monday night football or Sundayfootball in the States was a staple. You watched it with your family, became acoucher on bed, and then your sons and daughters grew up fans, and that wasjust part of your life. It's a contained field of play for all those majorsports except for golf, which candidly I know nothing about except it's a ballin a hole, and I get very angry both.

(45:12):

It's a contained field of play, so if you're live, you'rein and amongst live music, you're in and amongst people with a shared passion.If you're watching on tv, it's easy to follow along. Is it easy to follow alongfor a mainstream audience? Red Bull Rampage, because I don't know how long thecourse is. It looks insanely long, A World Cup downhill. Again, multiplecameras on there, but it's something that you can't even live appreciate thescale of it because there's zipping pass yet at a hundred miles to an hour downa steep shoot it's in and it's gone. It's like ski downhill, ski racing.They're past you and it's there. So I think there's a different effect on us asviewers when you can't necessarily associate it with, it's not the right word,but experience it the same way you could in a contained event. And I thinkthere's a little bit to do there with the field to play and how the games kindof play out. How does that manifest in terms of broadcasting or showcasing? Isit every guy, every girl's GoPro up and it's alive feed to what they're seeing?It's still a little different, but what does that look like? I don't know.

(46:27):

I don't think that addressed the

Cole Heilborn (46:27):

Question. No, but I think it's a really interesting ideas.I mean, the nature of the activities and the outdoors, you can't see it all.

Myles McCutcheon (46:35):

No.

Cole Heilborn (46:35):

Maybe as we kind of wrap things up, if you couldreimagine, I don't know, the world of content that you live in with theCanucks, what would you, and I understand there's restrictions and there'sbudget and there's access and all the things that do restrict what you can do,but if you could reimagine content for sports teams, what would you recreate ifyou had the ability,

Myles McCutcheon (46:59):

How would I flip that on its head? What would I like tosee from the outdoor industry?

Cole Heilborn (47:05):

Yeah,

Myles McCutcheon (47:06):

I think, and I consume a lot of content based on the outdoors,but I also may have missed some. I think there's a lot of stoke. I thinkthere's a lot of storyline based on what it takes to skin up a mountain, skidown a chute, a couple of really good bales, some cinematic photography that'sjust butter and incredibly good soundtracks. What I would love to see is a bitmore story based on emotional Canucksection or true challenges, and I knowthey're probably out there. I think free solo was one for sure, and look howthat resonated with a larger audience. If my mom's talking about somebodyclimbing a piece of granite, they have definitely reached a large audience.Right? There was a lot to unpack. Watching that even as somebody who doesn'tclimb rocks, what are those truly challenging moments that aren't just abouteffort and perseverance, and there's some great short form stuff.

(48:25):

I'm curious what that looks like in a longer form. I knowARC puts on a couple of really good films on people with disabilities or whohave overcome challenges or gender issues and stuff like that. It's short formthough. So what does that look like from a longer POV? Yeah. I don't know. I'mcurious what that could look like from a pro sports side. Yeah, I would love todo more in depth storytelling. I think it's only beneficial to the athletes andfrankly the leagues, sorry, as you try to engage new audiences to humanizethese characters and finding a way to humanize them so you and I can relate tosomething going on in their lives, but at the same time we hold 'em on apedestal because they're doing things that you and I also will never be able todo, is a very powerful way to grow those games and highlight the greatness thatthese athletes have.

Cole Heilborn (49:24):

Yeah, I like it. I would agree. I think that's one of thebig challenges of the outdoor industry is telling stories that are beyond justan identity piece or having the means, frankly, to do a multi season or yearlong project. Myles, do you have any other lasting thoughts?

Myles McCutcheon (49:44):

No, I think this was fantastic. I am hugely inspired bythe outdoor industry, skateboarding, snowboarding, deeply personal to me, and Ithink have always led the charge in terms of creativity, in terms of creatingcontent, in terms of storytelling, in terms of engagement, and frankly,audience, really solid audience building. So I'm inspired a lot by all the workI see out there, and I would love to see how professional sports can pull a bitof that forward because pull a bit of that into what they do, because thinkthat's where the magic will happen for us.

Cole Heilborn (50:30):

Amazing Myles, if folks want to find you and say, hi, dropyou a line, where can they find you? Other than the media box during a game?

Myles McCutcheon (50:38):

Yeah, exactly. If you're here, pick me up and shake yourhand and say hi in the arena. But also you can find me on LinkedIn, just Myles McCutchen.Yeah, it's probably the easiest place to find me there.

Cole Heilborn (50:49):

Incredible. Well, Myles, thanks for the time.

Myles McCutcheon (50:51):

Thank you, Cole. This was great.

Cole Heilborn (50:52):

I love this. This was fun to again, look outside the fourwalls and see how other people are doing things. Perfect. I love some of theseideas.

Myles McCutcheon (50:59):

Awesome. I hope it was helpful. I learned a lot. Thanks alot,

Cole Heilborn (51:01):

Cole. Have a good day. You too. Thank you for listening tothis episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share it with afriend or leave us a review on Apple.

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