Kate West (00:00):

Huckberry has also always been a great almost agency model for other brands. We started with brands we sell, and then brands who overlap with our interests. But now actually tourism boards have reached out to us and are like, can you bring this show to our place? And then even Airlines Dirt should be on Japan Airlines early next year. We're working with other airline partners as well. There's a lot of interest and it feels really good because for the tourism boards, we get to go shoot in new place and they get this really kind of unique content.

Cole Heilborn (00:37):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast. I'm your host Cole Heilborn. On this podcast, you'll hear from leaders in the outdoor marketing industry discuss the gritty details of their work as well as the latest challenges and lessons they're learning along the way. If you want to hone your craft and become a stronger marketer, then this podcast is for you. This podcast is produced by Port Side Productions, an outdoor film production company based in the Pacific Northwest. If you work at a brand or agency in the outdoor industry that needs help bringing a video project to life, head over to portside.com and send us an email we'd love to help.

Cole Heilborn (01:10):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast today. I'm Cole Heilborn with Kate West, the director and producer of Huckberry Presents. Kate, welcome to the show.

Kate West (01:18):

Thanks for having me.

Cole Heilborn (01:19):

Yeah, it's great to have you on the show. We got a lot to talk about. We're going to dive into the dirt series that Huckberry has been producing. How long have you guys been producing that show now?

Kate West (01:29):

It's been about three years. Exactly.

Cole Heilborn (01:31):

Yeah. So three years. I'm assuming you've learned a lot and continuing this theme of conversations we've been having on the show lately, talking about content and media and where it's all going and what's working and what isn't working. So Kate, I think you're one of the best people to talk about episodic content and what that means for brands. Can you share a little bit of background on the show, what it is, and your role as a director and producer on it?

Kate West (02:00):

Yeah, so I started at Huckberry four years ago almost exactly, and I came on as head of production, which was really similar to my role at a big outdoor brand that I had worked for before Huckberry. And while I was sort of doing these photo shoots for mainly product campaigns, I just realized there was this huge opportunity in storytelling that went beyond just product storytelling at Huckberry. And that foundation had been set way before me. They'd been set by Ben and Mike and people way before that, and Andy and Rich who kind of built this community as part of the brand. And it was through their emails even in the very beginning. So people came back to Huckberry for curated clothes, but also curated editorial. And so I sort of pitched this idea of doing serialized content based on everything we'd learned, the interests of our customer, things that were to them. And so then I worked with my friend Josh, who's the host of the show, and we came up with this idea Dirt.

Cole Heilborn (03:06):

And how many episodes are you into?

Kate West (03:08):

We just launched the 11th episode, which is Dirt Colorado, and then we are about to go shoot episode 12 and 13 in the next month.

Cole Heilborn (03:18):

And if you had to summarize, I don't know, high level, what has the response been? Has it exceeded expectations? What's the reaction internally?

Kate West (03:28):

Yeah, it's been really, really cool because it's a passion project that has taken off organically. So I think I feel so lucky to be working on something I love that's also resonating with people. So it feels like everything I pour into it, I get out of it, which I don't think is necessarily the case with a lot of creative work, but people seem to love it. And every episode it kind of reaches new audiences based on where we're going and who we're working with. And so yeah, I think by all accounts, it's been pretty successful.

Cole Heilborn (04:05):

Throughout this episode, I want to pull on a bunch of different threads and try to unravel what makes this show work and what contributes to the success of it all. But before we go down rabbit holes in one word, other than the talent behind the show, behind your creative team, what makes the show work other than the people and the stories and the locations? Is there some ingredient that maybe isn't as obvious?

Kate West (04:36):

We talk? Okay. One word, I think discovery. I think it's this element of discovery and unlocking new places. That's more than one word, but it's something that's been a part of the Huckberry DNA for a while.

Cole Heilborn (04:50):

Why that word? Why discovery?

Kate West (04:51):

Well, I remember when we started Andy, who's one of the founders, it was like, Hey, leave crumbs throughout the show, leave Crumbs. And then my editor, co-director, DP David from Work Shirt also was like, we have to leave education nuggets. People want to learn. It's actually this making this show has instilled a lot of faith in humanity for me. People are actually curious about the world and about things that don't feel necessarily mainstream or in vogue right now, whether it's crop rotation or cover crops or seed breeding. All those things are in our last episode, and people on the YouTube comments would geek out about it and get excited about it. So I think just the mind wants to learn and we always just try to educate people as we go when we build this show.

Cole Heilborn (05:43):

Fascinating. So why an episodic show? How did Dirt come to be? Was there a business challenge or a problem that inspired the show that you guys were trying to solve for? Or talk to me about how this idea came to be.

Kate West (06:01):

Well, I feel like, no, it was really organic. It was basically we trusted our instincts, and that's everyone from the content team beyond me to Ben and myself. But we just saw that people were coming back to our YouTube channel. More and more people, more and more of our demographic at Huckberry was engaging with YouTube. And we just thought a series was a great top of funnel way to spread awareness about Huckberry. So there wasn't a prompt. It was more like, this feels really, really right in this moment. And Ben agreed and they gave me a teeny budget for the first episode and we all killed ourselves. But that when I got that episode back from David, who edits it and shoots it, and it's only 15 minutes, but I was like, oh my God, this thing is going to work. It was one of the best sort of professional moments in my life. I was like, you get it. And I just knew it was going to resonate with people.

Cole Heilborn (07:08):

So you mentioned that Huckberry has a long history of producing content, and Ben o Mu was on the show in episode 72 and he talked about a lot of the content and the foundations of Huckberry and the newsletter and how everything was built to where you are today when you're thinking about types of content and things to produce. You mentioned you'd done a lunch of one-off pieces, and then this idea for serialized episodic content took roots. Talk to me about maybe the benefits or the considerations to go with episodic rather than continuing with the one-off direction, and maybe speaking for Huckberry specifically, but then maybe at large for the outdoor industry in general, what are things to consider?

Kate West (07:50):

I think Episodic works for certain brands, and I think for Huckberry it works really well. Again, going back to that community you mentioned people come back to Huckberry and we wanted to replicate that on YouTube in media format. So that's why it felt like such an obvious fit for Huckberry. Also, Huckberry really understands the interests of its customers. It is data on what people are reading and how they're responding to different articles. I mean, it is not even formulaic. They're just really, really smart and attuned to their customer base, and they really, really care how people interact with their site and their brand. So we knew what people liked, and a lot of people compare dirt and I mean, this is a huge compliment, and I don't even know if you can make this comparison, but to Anthony Bourdain. So we knew our customer resonated with Anthony Bourdain every time we did an article on Anthony Bourdain. People loved it. And then I think we just sort built off that sort of love of food and adventure and sort of did our iteration of it through Dirt.

Cole Heilborn (09:10):

So talk about knowing your customer. What do you know about them? What did you know about them before you started the show that led you to believe this would be a success? You used the Anthony Bourdain example. What are

Kate West (09:20):

Well, yeah, we know the demographics a lot of brands, but again, I think where Huckberry goes deeper is we know their interests as on a human level. We even have a name for our customer and we really, really know what I am assuming I can say this, what Jack, we call him Jack likes and what he responds to. And so we sort of knew that Jack is curious, they're educated, they love to travel, they love food, they love culture, they love music. So it's a space as a creative on the team. It's a fun space to play in because you don't only just need to work with the top outdoor athletes in the world, but you can speak to authors that you're interested in or artists you love or musicians that you love. And usually that'll spark interest with Jack too.

Cole Heilborn (10:17):

I think what I'm struggling to understand and what I'd love to dive into and try to piece together is what's unique about Huckberry and why does YouTube work for Huckberry when YouTube doesn't work for so many other brands? You guys have figured out something that seems special and seems very unique and on brand for Huckberry, and I don't see a lot of other outdoor brands following necessarily what you're doing. And if we had to try to piece together what that looks like or why that is, what do you think?

Kate West (10:51):

I think that's a really good question. I think we're still figuring out why it's working so well and there's a lot of space for trial and error, which is cool, which is allowed for us to learn a lot about what's working for us and what doesn't work for us and what doesn't work for us. We're like me, maybe not. I think Huckberry because it has established itself as somebody with a point of view. It's not just a brand, but it has a point of view on travel and home aesthetics and obviously style. So I think that, and it's this whole editorial kind of extension that's been a part of the brand and that came through and we've always had a specific voice that's colloquial and honest and built around discovery and unlocking certain things. So I think people come to us for that point of view and that extends to YouTube because we give viewpoints on travel on, we have Huckberry Homes, which is on people's homes and spaces, and it works. It is. And then I also just think that people who search for our brand is a certain demographic that's a little bit maybe more sophisticated than other YouTube viewers, a little bit older, long form content seems to really resonate with our audience, which isn't necessarily the case with other brands, I think. And then I think the flywheel is the serialization of everything. So people come back, they want another dirt episode, so they come back and they want to subscribe, and that's what, it's not just a one-off viewer, but they come back and subscribe.

Cole Heilborn (12:36):

Tell me more about the point of view. Is that something that other brands lack? Would you say that? Or is it so maybe more nuanced than that?

Kate West (12:44):

I think POV and voice can be very intertwined. I mean, I knew Huckberry way before I started working there, and I loved, it's a trusted voice. It's a trusted perspective. So it's like, oh, Huckberry recommends going to this rad restaurant in San Francisco where I used to live. I'm going to go check it out. And I think it's, they do, Huckberry has always done its homework in that way and put a lot of time and thought into editorial and the written word and curation. And then I think it's just more of a lifestyle brand. I think a lot of outdoor brands or outdoor brands, and this is more of a lifestyle brand, it teeters into different spaces that the big outdoor companies just don't teeter into. And then also there's accessibility, I think, which is really what I love about it. It's human story. So I think that that is, at least for a filmmaker, is really fun to tug on in the world of influencers. You can get to the human story and people appreciate that.

Cole Heilborn (13:51):

Does the point of view lend itself? I would assume it lends itself to a personality, and I think that's maybe one of the best things that I feel when I experience the Huckberry YouTube experience. It's like there's a personality to it all. And I don't know if I'd go as far to say that when I look at other brands, there isn't a personality, but you guys are putting people front and center and Josh is the host of Dirt and he is the person, he is the face that represents the show, and that's a very different take.

Kate West (14:23):

Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, I think it's Huckberry Iss a personal project, rich and Andy, they're still really involved and a lot of the copy is an iteration of Andy's voice and Ben O'Meara is the face of the Gear lab and he did the 72 hour show. So I think it's personal and it's storytelling from humans. The and the creative work is really personal too. A lot of times we're highlighting people internally who live the lifestyle of Huckberry, and that's very important for the brand. But yeah, I think there's a sincerity that comes through with the brand. And I mean, I can tell you it is really personal. I pour my heart and soul into dirt and so much of the voice is my voice. In addition to Josh's and Workshare too, even though they're freelancers, I mean they have, their point of view comes across, they're the dps, they set the visual language for the show. So I think that comes off to very sincere storytelling.

Cole Heilborn (15:37):

What do you think is speaking generally for outdoor brands? What are the necessary components in order to have a successful YouTube channel?

Kate West (15:45):

Well, I think you really need to hone in on the interest. I think niche interest. I think personalities are really important. You find those personalities that people resonate with those authentic personalities. And Huckberry does a lot of work to do in that department. And I think, I'm trying to think of, it's so funny, is an outdoor brand, but it's also a lifestyle brand. So again, we can play in so many different places and pull on so many different interests. But I think for outdoor brands in general, I really think people do resonate with sincere and authentic storytelling. And just finding the vehicles for that is great. Whether it's the topic or the individual person

Cole Heilborn (16:37):

For the success of Dirt. How important was the community that was already built amongst the Huckberry brand? Was that

Kate West (16:46):

Huge? Yeah, huge. And DIRT is a substantial part of the growth of the YouTube channel, but John, Debra and his team have done a great job in terms of just pumping out content that is high quality but easier to do. The Gear Labs are great people come. This is another thing I think that, I mean this is so obvious, but a lot of people go to YouTube not just to be as an escape from boredom, but also to learn. So I think that is something that Dirt does in an understated way, leaving those crumbs and touching on people's curiosity and education. But the Gear Labs in a lot of them, people are learning about something, whether it's even what people carry in a backpack when they go into the back country or carrying a backpack around New York every day. So I think there's that component too. I think I actually just lost your question, but

Cole Heilborn (17:49):

You're good. So this is something that I've thought, and I guess I'm curious to hear your reaction. I guess to kind of reiterate, I feel like a lot of brands struggle, I guess I'd say with YouTube and try to really figure out how to make it work. There are exceptions and there are people out there who are doing it really well, but I often feel like when it comes to this world of brand storytelling or episodic content or long form content, there's still a lot of questions about how does this work? How do we really make we maximize this? And I often wonder if one of the missing pieces to sometimes this stuff not working is when a brand produces something. They're making the assumption that the audience wants to hear from them and that they have something meaningful to contribute. And it seems like in order to reach that spot where that trust is earned with the audience, that takes a long time and it takes a lot of investment. And I'm curious if you could speak to that idea if you agree or disagree

Kate West (18:49):

A hundred percent, and I have grand ambitions for what I want to create at Huckberry, but then you realize maybe Huckberry doesn't need six high quality shows in addition to dirt. At the end of the day, we're selling product, and I think you can get, especially the creative team and the brand market team, you can get lost in the thought that everyone needs this storytelling extension. It is sexy and it is fun, but I don't know if necessarily with YouTube, if you build it, they will come to your point. It has to be a brand that's established that trust and that community with its customers. So Huckberry is sticky, right? People come, they read, they stay on the site. Our email clickthrough rate is incredibly high. And I think with other brands, they don't have that. And you have to work to build that, to your point, whether that starts on Instagram and then that populates over to YouTube. But yeah, there's a lot of foundational work that needs to be done to get there in an effective way.

Cole Heilborn (20:06):

So let's say I run a brand and I'm in the process of building trust and building community. What's maybe a sign that I have built enough equity with my customers and my audience to maybe take the plunge and go further and create an episodic show or try to build out the YouTube? Is there any way you could quantify?

Kate West (20:27):

I think when people, that's a good question and I don't know if I can answer it, but I think if people come to you, your brand for a specific point of view, I think you want to build off of that. So if they're gear heads, then build off of that, then create a lot of information and content around gear and informing people about gear. And I think from there it can build on. I also think just this is an tale as old as time, but finding personalities that resonate with your brand and that can be conduits for your brand and that are just great brand fits and look the part and talk the part and are out there as extensions of your brand.

Cole Heilborn (21:12):

But it sounds like understanding what your point of view is and why people come to your brand is

Kate West (21:18):

Beyond just product. What else do you want to tell people? What else do you stand for? And again, dirt is the result of 10 years of foundational editorial work that the brand put in. I just was able to capitalize on it, but there was so much work done in brand building before Dirt came along. I think Dirt's helped the brand and hopefully it's been a megaphone for the brand. But yeah, I think there's so much foundational work that needs to get from point A to point Z. Yeah,

Cole Heilborn (21:57):

Maybe to reiterate, that's 10 years of slowly putting coins in the bank and building that equity.

Kate West (22:05):

Yeah, when Huckberry started, I mean the whole team, I mean, I wasn't there, but I think about this a lot. I mean, the whole team would be working till 12 every night on the copy for the email. That's the founders, that's the merchandiser, that's the product buyers. Everyone was involved. I mean, it is a real sort of brand that stemmed from the heart, and I think that, and there's been a lot of effort to, as it's grown to preserve that voice in POV. So it's a lot of hard work. No good creative comes without hard, hard work, which could be remembered.

Cole Heilborn (22:46):

And to your point, it's hard work actually producing the creative, but then there's so many other supporting elements that have to be in place in order for the creative to actually work.

Kate West (22:54):

That's a really good point too. I mean, Huckberry Dirt, I have essentially a freelance team to produce the actual content, but the takedowns and the amplification of it and how it lives on the Huckberry website, that whole ecosystem, cross platform takes an army. So it's like, yeah, I get to do the fun stuff. Well, sometimes it's fun. Mostly it's fun, but I think in order to actually get this out in the world and connect it back to your brand, there's a ton of work that needs to be done behind the scenes. Do

Cole Heilborn (23:31):

You know that classic meme or that image that pops up on social media? It's like the picture of an iceberg and then there's the picture of the result and then all of the work and all the layers below it. If you had to use that analogy and if a single dirt episode is what you see sticking out of the water, how much is below the surface?

Kate West (23:49):

Oh my God, you don't want to know. It doesn't make sense. I mean, from my time, from my pre-production and post-production on this thing, my God, I spend, I mean insane amount of hours, probably like 500 hours on either side. And then in terms of just the social team is involved. I mean this is how brand marketing's incredible, right? Mike and Olivia, they take what they take it, they connect the dots with product, they connect the dots with comms, whether that's social and then the content team, which is a teeny super teeny team internally, it's like content and growth. They do the cutdowns, they make sure the thumbnail image is right and resonates with the audience. So there's so much thought that goes behind this. It's not just a cool piece of content and we just drop it on YouTube. There's a ton of work that goes into behind the scenes. Yeah, there's a big mass under that.

Cole Heilborn (24:53):

Percentage wise, what would you say

Kate West (24:56):

In terms of what

Cole Heilborn (24:58):

Is 5% the actual output of the episode, the episode itself, and then 95 is everything else or

Kate West (25:05):

No, I think actually the work to make this thing is insane. It's actually probably the bulk of the work is still done in the creation of the episode from pre-production to from composing the music to the animation, all that stuff. But I would say there's like 30% under it, which is the amplification engine.

Cole Heilborn (25:34):

Talk more about the, so the pieces that we don't see, the social cutdowns, the amplification, what are you guys finding is working well there? How do you get this stuff out into the world?

Kate West (25:47):

I think so we started doing Dirt uncut, which is kind of cool. The first one we did was with Killer Mike because we had this great interview with Killer Mike and we're like, when are we ever going to get Killer Mike again? Because relatively, I mean as a brand, we don't actually spend that much on marketing and influencer marketing at all. I mean, killer Mike did our interview for free as a favor to the chefs that we are working with. So that's cool about dirt, I mean our talent fees, we don't really have a talent budget, but people want their story told and then the greater community around them wants to tell their story and they want to tell the story of the place that they live. So that's a really fun part about Dirt is when people get it, they'll work for it and they're excited to be a part of it.

(26:36):

So going back to the amplification, so we do obviously email support. So we promoted an email, which is, the email is a huge, it's kind of the tail that wags the dog at Huckberry. I mean, at least it was when I started. So emails are a great kind of amplification engine, and then there's a series of social cuts leading up to the edit for promotion. And then after the edit as well, then there's a page on our website with all the product that's connected to Dirt. And then we started going back to the dirt cutts and we started actually taking scenes and making them longer scenes that we had to cut. And we actually did sort of the full scene or we kind of lean into a character with these dirts un cutts. They're sort of like, it's pretty fun. We're trying to figure out what's working and what's not working.

(27:38):

But we just did it for Texas. We did a few dirt uncut, we did one with Liz Lambert who's a character who's awesome. And we went to a flea market with her and that didn't make it in the edit. And we were like, how can we just this sit on out dry for the rest of its life? So we went, made that edit. So it's getting more, squeezing more content out of dirt and then separately amplifying it on the various platforms that Huckberry has. Also, we do editorial pieces, so we do articles connected to each episode with Ireland. What was really successful was an itinerary, so people would watch the episode and be like, where do I start? How do I have this experience? And then on our journal, we had an itinerary that built out sort of the journey. And I think that's something that we're going to do moving forward, especially when we go international. But yeah, so it's really, again, total there's a huge engine behind me.

Cole Heilborn (28:38):

Yeah. Talk to me more about in the description of each YouTube channel, you've got a link and that takes you to a landing page for that particular episode. And as you said, it kind of features all the gear. That's something that I often wonder or it seems like another challenge that brands have is how do we connect the bottom of the funnel to the top of the funnel? And here you are doing it and it's in the first line or maybe the second line of the description in YouTube. What if you can, what sort of impact do you see on sales through that link? Through the connection of each episode?

Kate West (29:14):

I think we've been successful, but I think we want to be more successful. So we definitely meet the brief as a top of funnel content series. So just spreading awareness about Huckberry, right? And then getting people curious about Huckberry. And then again, Huckberry sticky. So once you go to huckberry.com, it'll be hard not to spend five to 10 minutes just cruising around so much. It's just an infinite black hole of cool stuff and articles. So in that, we meet the brief definitely with the top of funnel expression through dirt, where we're still trying to figure out is a sell-through of product. And with certain times sponsors come in and come into these episodes, whether it's like Red Wing shoes or Gerber or Decked, and then we're more overt about including that into the episode, and we'll give them takedowns that they can promote on their channels.

(30:17):

What's interesting is Shopify does allow plugins to YouTube. We haven't experimented with this yet, but I think that's where the show is going, where you can actually, if Josh is wearing a certain shirt, you could actually buy it, it would be click through, but we do not have that engine in place now. I think that's something that we're working towards. So that would actually make maybe my life easier because instead of trying to find creative ways to connect the dots, the dots are connected. But I think, so we're still figuring it out. I mean, I think one way to do it that could be more overt is again, these take takedown videos that are specific to the product that it's like, okay, and they connect it right to dirt.

Cole Heilborn (31:03):

You mentioned sponsors. Talk to me a little bit about how you put these projects together, how they're funded and that you've also talked about maybe the possibility of finding partners to help fund these in the future. Now that there's a following and some hype around these, can you share a little about the more business side of how these are produced?

Kate West (31:26):

Yeah, sure. So this model in terms of having brands that we sell on our site help fund content longer form content. My colleague Mike started doing that years ago and I copied that model for even the pilot episode. I reached out to bare bones and I was like, Hey, will you give me like $5,000 or, I don't even know what it was. It was pretty much nothing and product and I'll include in this pilot episode. And good for them. They took the jump and they were like, sure, we like what you're doing. We think this is going to be awesome, so we'll give you this. And I was like, okay, awesome. And I was sort of like that first one. I was scrapping it together and Tin Cup came in as an early sponsor too, even though we don't sell their product. I mean, again, Huckberry has also always been a great almost agency model for other brands, and we've capitalized that on Dirt Through, we started with brands we sell, and then brands who overlap with our interests.

(32:28):

Like Whiskey obviously is an obvious one, tin Cup, and we just did Strand of Hands for Colorado, but now actually tourism boards have reached out to us and are like, can you bring this show to our place? Oh, wow. So Ireland was an amazing case study on that. They were a great partner and I think they're really happy with the result. And then also we're working with Tourism New Zealand. I leave next week and then even airlines, Japan Airlines, Rebecca, shout out to Rebecca from Japan Airlines who's like my favorite sponsor partner, one of my favorite. But she's been a great kind of creative thought partner, and she funded both of the Japan episodes and we're going to do another one in a month. So there's a lot of interest, and it feels really good because for the tourism boards, we get to go shoot in a new place and they get this really kind of unique content expression of their place that will hopefully motivate people to travel there. And then with airlines, one of the cool things is we can also get, it can be a distribution partner as well, so we can get inflight entertainment. So dirt should be on Japan Airlines early next year. We're working with other airline partners as well to solidify that. So it's really a collaborative partnership it feels like with all these sponsors. So it feels pretty good.

Cole Heilborn (34:01):

I'm just kind of amazed at how, I dunno what the right word is, thorough, just there's so much that's working so well for this show.

Kate West (34:10):

Well, and a huge part of the engine is this guy Jeremy, who's head of our media partnerships, who gets it. He gets it from the sponsor side and he gets it from the brand side, and he gets it from my creative side. So he's been a huge help in terms of getting more funding for this project. And Huckberry a really smart business. They're not just going to blow a ton of money on media because media is expensive. It's so expensive and it's hard to see immediate ROI on it, especially top of funnel content. So this sponsorship funding has helped allow us to have a longer runway for dirt. Specifically

Cole Heilborn (34:57):

What I'm hearing is you've got this incredible foundation of a brand that because of that foundation gives you this opportunity to produce a totally new type of show to the outdoor lifestyle community because that's gained detraction and attention. Not only does it meet the brief at its barest minimum, but now you have partners and people seeking the show out to actually fund it to distribute on your own platform. I mean, it seems like you got multiple slam dunks.

Kate West (35:26):

Yeah, it feels good. I mean, I'm still pushing a giant rock up the hill.

Cole Heilborn (35:30):

I don't want to discredit the actual work that it takes to produce.

Kate West (35:33):

It's still No. Yeah, I mean, but I also think there's something magic about the content. Scott Ballou is somebody who I spoke to when I was starting, when I got the title Huckberry presents, and I'm like, how I was over analyzing all this. I'm like, how do I make the perfect show for Huckberry? And he's like, trust your instincts. If you create good content, people will watch it. And that is definitely a motto I stand by and probably more than anything else is what I believe in. It's like find the right team, find the right chemistry on set, take risks from a creative standpoint, trust your instincts more than anything. I think first and foremost, I'm a creative. I'm less chute on the business front, but I believe in my partners and I believe in Huckberry in that capacity. But I think the content is really special that we're creating, and I really believe in that first and foremost.

Cole Heilborn (36:40):

Yeah. Tell me more about the idea of quality versus quantity. Maybe what's your personal philosophy and then how does that extend or does that extend to the brand?

Kate West (36:51):

Yeah, I mean, I would say if I could make more dirts every year, I would, but I think a few things are holding me back. One is, again, going back to this internal team that's an engine behind this. This is still not, it's not a huge priority for the business because we're not generating really any revenue from it, so we can only allocate so many internal resources, and I need them to push these out. So it would be a bottleneck. And then in terms of the amount of work and time I put into pre-production, there's only so much, so many I can come up with. So it's a scalability issue, but I do think if we had eight episodes of dirt a year, people wouldn't be exhausted by it. I think people would want it, and I think it would actually get more views and lead to more YouTube subscribers.

(37:42):

So I think more is more, but I think something that Huckberry is learning and trying to figure out is how many shows do we need as a brand? Going back to what do brands really need? You look at other brands who are throwing out new shows and then contracting, and they're coming up with new shows every month, and then they're like, oh, actually no. So I think we've been actually really smart to be, even though there's a part of me that's like, I want another show, I want to capitalize on this and work with other people, and this is such an exciting time in my career, I think is, it's been smart that we've sort of been like, let's kind of put this out in the world, see how our audience interacts with it, see what's working and what isn't, and then we will build from there.

Cole Heilborn (38:35):

If you had to give a generalized response to the idea of quality versus quantity when it comes to content in the outdoor, and I say outdoors, I include Huckberry in that as a lifestyle, all the lifestyle brands out there. I guess your thoughts on that idea from the 30,000 foot level about where the industry is going?

Kate West (38:55):

I mean, I think the outdoor industry puts out some of the most incredible content out there. I worked in independent film in New York. All my colleagues were Tisch graduates, and they're beautiful films shot on 16 millimeter that took five years to create, but a lot of outdoor content is eye candy, and there's something to it. And there's also incredibly powerful storytelling in the outdoor space way beyond what I'm doing. And I mean, they're true heroes. Some of these outdoor athletes are incredible and they're accomplishing incredible things. I think the only thing that I got after working at a large outdoor brand for six years, just I got really saturated. I felt like I was watching another person climb a mountain over and over, and despite the cool editing and cool music and cool shooting it felt, I think you can just get a little bit conditioned to that content. But that being said, whenever I need a new filmer for whatever it is, even if it's shooting in the city, I'll always start with the homies in the outdoor industry. If you can shoot on top of a mountain when it's snowing and lug all your gear up there or shoot in the ocean when it's like the swell is insane, you're going to be able to shoot in New York City.

(40:31):

And I think there's a resilience to the filmmakers in the outdoor industry, and there's an understanding of beauty that I also understand, and I find inspiration from the outdoors. I live in Wyoming, so I think it's a great place to start. And I love that the outdoor industry is pumping out so much content.

Cole Heilborn (40:54):

I like that word you used conditioned. Are we just over conditioned and oversaturated with the same type of content? Is that why what Huckberry is doing feel so new and unique because it's truly fresh?

Kate West (41:07):

I mean, yeah, I don't want to talk badly about the outdoor

Cole Heilborn (41:12):

Industry.

Kate West (41:14):

It's like, so people are incredible shooting these things and physically and technically their skills go way beyond mine. But I think I would just give people liberty to get weird and try new things and tell stories that people aren't telling and go into places maybe that interest that maybe fall slightly outside of what they think is standard. I think it's cool that it brings environmental issues first and forefront, and you watch it wonderful outdoor film and you can't help but care about the world. That's so important. But yeah, there's a ton of outdoor content being made, period, and I don't think that there's any end in sight. So

Cole Heilborn (42:03):

Yeah. Where do you feel the future of brand content is going?

Kate West (42:09):

Well, I think more people are going to look to brand content to create work money with brands right now. And I think that traditional, I guess not traditional because the streaming sites aren't putting up as much money or taking as much risk on young filmmakers. So I think brands are a great way for young filmmakers to get their start. I hope that brand content continues to grow as we've seen it grow over the last five years or something. It's a really exciting place to play in right now, and it seems like that's where it's going. It really does. And I would really hope that distributors start recognizing brand content as serious content, not just marketing campaigns, which has been a struggle with getting our stuff on other platforms, and maybe it's not Netflix caliber anyway or HBO caliber anyway, but it's hard even to get into a room with someone and them not just look at us as a brand with ad spend, but to take us seriously as creators. And I really, really hope that streamers recognize that. But I think that brand, I mean the Glass Half Full Kate thinks this is just the beginning of Rad brand content.

Cole Heilborn (43:36):

If you had to make any predictions about what type of unique types of content we might see in the future, do you have any ideas or are you holding those close to your chest?

Kate West (43:48):

I mean, I know what Huckberry is interested in, but I don't know. I think the world's your oyster. I think you just got to find the right platform, the right personality, the right creative team, and you can tell any story you want. I think people are listening. There are more ways to view content now and for your content to be seen than anytime in history. So think more and more people will capitalize on that and then the good stuff will flow to the top.

Cole Heilborn (44:27):

People are listening. I like that. So I hope Interesting. That's a glass half full Kate, what about half empty Kate?

Kate West (44:43):

That the influencer's going to take over the world and I'm, I'm not going to have any more funding. And there's a lot of paid social spend out there that is very effective in sell-through in ways that dirt isn't. And it's fine. It's fine. It's another way to make a living. But yeah, I hope that the high quality brand storytelling can exist and there's rubric despite that as well.

Cole Heilborn (45:20):

As we slowly wrap up here, what are some questions that you're asking yourself or things that you're watching and trying to keep an eye on?

Kate West (45:28):

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the questions that you posed, I think there's a lot of unknowns out there. I think whether the content creation is going to continue to get less expensive and more democratized, and if that's going to work in my favor of work against me as a creator and as more of a director and producer than an actual, like a filmer, whether dirt can continue to sustain an audience, whether other brands will create iterations of dirt that almost cannibalize it, which isn't a huge concern. Another one is we've tried a lot to get dirt into film festivals and it's been hard again because it's brand content and we've also had to push it out quickly because we need to just get these out and we can't really sit on them and wait for film festivals to come back to us, whether the film festival world and the screening world is a lifeline for dirt and brand content in general because it is super fun and it's a really different way to get your content out in the world, and it's a really rewarding way to get your content out in the world, I think, for Huckberry, where if we will figure out a way to create more shows that's scalable and makes sense for the brand.

(47:00):

Yeah, those are some of my questions.

Cole Heilborn (47:02):

Is there anything, we covered a lot. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to touch on?

Kate West (47:06):

No, I don't think so. I don't even know what I just said.

Cole Heilborn (47:08):

Well, I think it's fascinating to hear behind the scenes and understand how this came together and then to understand all the ways that it's working and how you leverage it and all the ways that you hope to continue to leverage it into the future. Do you have any final thoughts? If you had to summarize our conversation, anything you'd want to leave the audience with?

Kate West (47:31):

Good. Creative is a product of very, very, very hard work. There's no escaping it. I would say that is first and foremost, and also just finder of people. I think working with friends, I don't know if Work Shirt and Josh consider me friends, but I consider them friends and having vulnerability with your team and honesty just is the best way to make good creative and build on your creative and evolve your creative. So there's an insane beauty in that and it makes it fun.

Cole Heilborn (48:10):

Yeah, amazing.

Kate West (48:12):

That's another, actually, that's something that I think Huckberry has figured out from the beginning. A photographer I worked with at Huckberry and one said, fun is fun on a shoot. And it's like if you shoot stuff that's fun, if you guys are having fun, that'll come through in the entertainment and people want fun, especially right now when the world is on fire and at war, and I think go TV is escapism and I think that that is, when you're thinking about building a series lean in,

Cole Heilborn (48:44):

That's something I think about. Think you hear stories about the Great Depression and you hear about how people, that's when movies became, there was a surge in moviegoers because people just wanted to escape the world that they were living. And I know that's a really pessimistic thing to say about today's world, but I do wonder if that's a huge opportunity.

Kate West (49:05):

It's funny you say that. We say that all the time. We could go to places and be critical or bring up political issues, but we are like, our job is not to poke holes in this place. Our job is to celebrate the place and make people feel good about the place and bring light. We want to show that's really light and fun. And I think you're right on. And I think certain outdoor brands that are amplifying environmental crises, they're probably, and it's part of their brand ethos, but it's probably more of a challenge to get as many viewers because they're bringing to light serious issues. Well, we're really not. Hopefully we can lead people to certain issues, but that's not our job. Our job is escape and discovery and fun is fun.

Cole Heilborn (49:58):

Yeah. Well, there's a time and place for everything, as Mike Rogie on the podcast said, there's a nutritional diet and there's a media diet and there's room for everything and a mix of everything is healthy.

Kate West (50:09):

Sure. Yep.

Cole Heilborn (50:10):

Kate, I want to thank you for taking the time to chat. I wish you the best on your next production, and I'm excited to see what you guys continue to produce.

Kate West (50:19):

Thanks so much. This was so fun.

Cole Heilborn (50:20):

Have a great day. You too. Bye.

Cole Heilborn (50:22):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share it with a friend or leave us a review on Apple.

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