Robin Thurston (00:00):

And I'm like, if you're an outdoor brand, what are you going to sell in the Metaverse? A virtual jacket? Is that, I don't know, man. I think as these brands and these categories, you got to be thinking about how all your dollars go into businesses, yours, mine, others. I think it's just really important. I think brands have got to align with what they want the ultimate outcome for the consumer to be, and I think it's important. But I do worry about all the dollars going to entities that frankly, in my opinion, do not care if you were outside. They do not.

Cole Heilborn (00:33):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast. I'm your host, Cole Heilborn. On this podcast, you'll hear from leaders in the outdoor marketing industry discuss the gritty details of their work as well as the latest challenges and lessons they're learning along the way. If you want to hone your craft and become a stronger marketer, then this podcast is for you. This podcast is produced by Portside Productions, an outdoor film production company based in the Pacific Northwest. If you work at a brand or agency in the outdoor industry that needs help bringing a video project to life, head over to portside pro.com and send us an email we'd love to help.

Cole Heilborn (01:06):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast from Portside Productions. Today I'm sitting down with Robin Thurston. He is the CEO and founder of Outside Interactive. Robin, welcome.

Robin Thurston (01:16):

Hey, thanks for having me.

Cole Heilborn (01:17):

Yeah, thanks for being here. Thanks for taking time out of your day. How's your day going so far?

Robin Thurston (01:21):

So far so good. It's Blue skies out here in Boulder.

Cole Heilborn (01:26):

Beautiful. I see you got the trainer behind you. It looks like there might even be some fresh sweat on it. You're a big bike guy, aren't you? Yeah,

Robin Thurston (01:33):

I mean, I ride five, six days a week. I always try to get outdoors, but obviously in the winter it's a little bit trickier. So I'm a big swifter Iwt a fair amount. I actually just rode with Eric Min out in LA for, we did a big day, a hundred plus miles recently in Santa Monica, so it was nice to be outdoors with him and not just on zw with him.

Cole Heilborn (01:55):

He realized that there's a real world with fresh air and trees beyond the TV screen.

Robin Thurston (02:00):

Yeah, exactly.

Cole Heilborn (02:02):

Well, Robin, today we're going to talk about, I've heard you talk about this idea many times, this idea of inspire, activate, and celebrate. And one of outside's goals is to get people outside, as simple as that sounds, and something you've talked a lot about in our intro call and I hear you talk about on other podcasts and things is like, what does it mean to inspire? How do we inspire? And I'd love to dig into that with you and explore a few different ideas within that. So my first question for you is what was the most recent piece of content or conversation that inspired you?

Robin Thurston (02:34):

Well, I mean, we're coming fresh off of Warren Miller. Obviously we produce a lot of content every day, and I'll talk a little bit about why UGC is so important for inspiration as well. But just coming off of Warren Miller, we've had a phenomenal tour and I remember we a sort of premier on October 15th in Boulder, and it's always a little, I get to see a preview of the film, but I don't get to see the final final film until I'm in the theater for the thing. So I'm just super inspired by the team and what they were able to put together. And for the 75th anniversary, and it was Warren Miller's hundredth birthday would've been on October 15th. So that's why we did the premiere on that day in Boulder. And I would just listening to the stories in the movies of the athletes and certainly the places that we went and shot the film and the way that we produced it with these various writers, producers, it just leaves you with this moment of you do really want to go ski or snowboard.

(03:55):

Do you know what I mean? You leave the theater and you are in this spot where you're like, God, I wish the resort was open right now. This moment I joke a little bit like it's a great day to sell season passes and things like that because people have that sort of euphoric moment of watching the film and maybe the dopamine is going and the endorphins after watching and they're like, Hey, when am I going to go do this? When am I going to go? And it was also just great to see the kids. I mean, you see these families that are multi-generational coming to something like Warren Miller, which has been around for 75 years, and you watch the kids, even my own kids that were there just watching how excited they are to see this. And those moments to me are really, really critical to what I would call the entire sort of outdoor journey and getting people to think about spending time in the outdoors.

(04:55):

And there's so many people, obviously we have great brands in all of these categories, but there are so many people in the outdoor industry writing and producing, and even yourself Cole podcasting. And to me, all of it's important. All of it is a moment where maybe the person that was going to play Roblox decides that they're going to go outdoors instead. And so I often will say it's a stretch to hear me talk negatively about anyone in the outdoor industry because I think we have such an uphill battle about getting people into the outdoors. And so I don't necessarily agree with every decision, with every business in the space, but I'm very supportive because I just absolutely think we're all up against a massive hill of technology of other types of activities that people can do. I mean, I don't care if it's Netflix, I don't care if it's games, social media. It's all a massive uphill battle for us. And so I think each moment that we all provide a little bit of inspiration to the audiences that we attract, I think is really, really critical.

Cole Heilborn (06:22):

So why do you think about it in those three steps? Inspire, activate, and then celebrate, which I thought was an interesting kind of third idea.

Robin Thurston (06:29):

We recently reacquired my old company map MyFitness back into the portfolio, and we used to have this actually campaign that ran that was just called Start, stop and save. That was the campaign because the idea that you create a product that's so good on the phone that we used to have this thing also called the turnaround test. If you forgot your phone, would you turn around while you were just about to go for a run or a ride and go back and get your phone? You wanted to record it. And one of the things that always sort of grabbed me, I have this theory that we at heart, all humans are photographers. They love maps. Maps are like people just love seeing the visualization of the things they do. And so when I think about this idea of inspiration, what is the thing that when you wake up in the morning, whether it's a photo, whether it's seeing, there's a lot of studies that show that even people looking at their running shoes, if you put your running shoes by your bed, you're more likely to go run that day.

(07:38):

So there's the part about what is the first trigger going to be in your day? And that's really how I think about inspiration is what is that trigger that's going to get you to activation to that next step in the cycle then? So in the old world of map, it was like, okay, well you see the icon on your phone, that's the inspiration. You're like, oh, there's map my run. I got to go for a run today. That's a little bit of nagging in your head. And then the activation is the act of going out and doing something, right? Whether that's skiing, that's running, that's hiking, that's kayaking, whatever it is. But the thing that we realized at Mapai was there was this moment when somebody hit the save button and the data popped up and maybe the photos that you took on the activity and the map popped up all at once that it wasn't just about saving the activity, it was a training log, Cole. It was actually a moment of celebration. It was like, wow, look at this visualization of what I have done. And we noticed that in that data that the more people tended to kind of get into a pattern and that save cycle that they would then do it again. That in some ways the moment of celebration was very linked to the moment of inspiration.

(09:01):

So when I think about this cycle that we talk about inspiration, activation, celebration, the theory is that if you get always someone to the celebration moment that they're more likely to do it again, they're more likely to go through that if they don't. There's this crazy stat, I can't back it up, but there's some stat that I've seen a couple of times around 50% of bicycles, new bicycles in the US only get used once

Cole Heilborn (09:28):

Really,

Robin Thurston (09:29):

And again, I can't back up the stats, so to be clear, it's something that I've heard over the years, but the reason largely is that people go out and have a bad experience. They potentially almost get hit by a car, they have a flat tire, and then all of a sudden the whole thing breaks down. The whole experience, that moment of celebration is all broken because you had a bad, I would argue if you get hurt the first time skiing, are you going to ski again? I mean, my daughter unfortunately broke her tibia right through at the boot line when she was seven,

(10:00):

And it's been a really long journey. She's doing a lot of other things now, but it was a really long journey to get her back onto skis. So when I think about this whole cycle, it's a lot about inspiration is also linked to preparation. Do you have the right gear? Do you have the right knowledge that you need? Even if it's the basics of how to change a flat tire. In our outside learn platform, we have a video on how to change a bike tire because that is part of that sort of preparation linked to before you go do the activation. And so I think it's just a really celebration to me is this moment where you have this opportunity to really acknowledge that the person has done something kind of amazing. I mean, I don't care if it's a 5K, I don't care if it's a day skiing. These are to me far better things to do than say sit in front of Netflix and watch Netflix. It's not that I don't, of course I watch Netflix, man, but it's like to me, people got to get out there, they got to do these things, they got to experience these things.

Cole Heilborn (11:18):

Is there a type or a medium that inspires you the most? It could be a film, it could be a photo, an article, a conversation with a friend. What gets you pumped?

Robin Thurston (11:33):

I think for me, I'm a bit of, if I think about cycling as an example, I'm a bit habitual. It's just like I've been doing it so long. I started when I was eight, nine years old racing, and it's just part of almost my DNA in terms of what I wake up thinking every day. So for me in something like cycling, it's just in some ways it's even just seeing the bike. Why do I have my bike in my office? Why the bikes are ready to go in the garage super easy is because it does motivate me to want to get on it. It is part of my sort of meditation when I'm out on the bike. So I think in other categories I would say there's no question for me, visual with something like skiing motivates me to go skiing. So seeing the movie, seeing great pictures of resorts that I could go to or frankly UGC, like I'm using example on our new platform, all of the editors have their bylines are linked to their accounts.

(12:38):

They own their own accounts and their bylines are linked to them. And people now are following instead of following, say outside as a brand, they're following individual editorial people. And the other day I'm using example like Sierra Schafer who's the editor in chief of Ski, she's in some crazy place in Europe skiing on a work trip, and she posts up these behind the scenes photos and I'm like commenting back, I'm like, where are I want to go there? How do I get there? So I definitely think this part about UGC and sharing UGC video and photos is a really big activator for people to want to go do these activities. I mean, you can see this in the travel space. I was just at this big travel conference and UGC or creator led travel is really exploded and how do you get there After that, I see some travel influencer or ski influencer and I'm like, I want to go there. So it's linking all that together I think is what's coming. And I think that's pretty exciting because that's where it moves from. You see a great photo somewhere or video and then it's actually linked to, I can actually go do this thing, which to me is the link to activation, right? Yeah.

Cole Heilborn (13:56):

In other words, it's a lift ticket that you can buy after you watch this awesome Warren Miller film

Robin Thurston (14:00):

Or here's how you book the trip to go to British Columbia, which is where that shoot was, or here are the maps that you need to go do that and save that to do it later, right? That's all part of that activation sort of cycle

Cole Heilborn (14:15):

Storytelling. I mean, it's something we talk a lot about on this show. It's something, it's something that we're extremely passionate about on the production company side, and it's something that I feel like dovetails pretty well into this idea of inspiration stories inspire us. But my question is have we commoditized stories? Have we maybe forgotten the ability that they have to inspire? Are we overwhelmed with the amount of stories that are out there that we forget the power that they have?

Robin Thurston (14:42):

No. I mean, when I think about things, I mean, I can use an example if you think about somebody like John Krakauer back in the day into thin air, and I think there's going to be a long place in the world for long form storytelling. And I think that whether that's produced obviously in something like outside magazine, if it's online, if it's turned into audio or even you look at something like Notebook Excel that Google put out and turning it into a podcast is super interesting. That long form storytelling I took, we had this shoe heist story that we did this long form Shhe story, and I turned it into a podcast and I was blown away at how good it was. I mean, I was like, this is amazing. I love listening to this. So I'm still very bullish on storytelling. I do worry that we are in a period, I mean, I can tell you even take my LinkedIn feed as an example. Somebody the other, they asked me, why did you put a.in front of your name on LinkedIn? If you go look at my LinkedIn profile, it says dot robin. And somebody randomly, they send me a DM and they're like, Ken, why did you do that? And I go, because more than 50%, I mean, I probably get 500 LinkedIn messages a week, and more than 50% of 'em are bots. And you can tell because they leave the period on the dot robin.

(16:20):

So

(16:21):

It's an automated thing creating DM to me saying, I mean, we were talking about this before with the SaaS companies, so I can literally just filter all those out. I can be like, I'm not answering these. So I just fear right now that even I'm taking example, my LinkedIn feed or I think a lot of social feeds are just being inundated with AI content. And I think it's a real challenge. I mean, I think there are some benefits. So to be clear, I think there's ways to think about how AI can be used in research, in idea generation, in framing, things like that. But I do worry a lot that we're going to be fire hosed around too much content and then that's when to me, you have this challenge of great storytelling, less and less people maybe find it because we're distracted down into seven second blurbs and videos that maybe they're entertaining call. It's hard for me to say that it's not entertaining watching somebody jump around for seven seconds in a TikTok video, but I don't know if to me, if some people want to call it storytelling, I would say it's a far different type of storytelling.

Cole Heilborn (17:53):

Yeah. What role, if any, do you feel like outside plays in that dystopian future in maybe hopefully preventing that?

Robin Thurston (18:02):

Yeah, I mean, when you get a highly sort of fractured system where all this content's coming from and it's all, I do think there will be a point where humans, I worry about the bots reading the bots and that all looking like there's a whole thing going on with that. The bots reading the bots and how all that ends up in the ecosystem and how, if you're using an example, let's say you're trying to advertise your podcast or I'm trying to advertise the Warren Miller film doesn't do us a lot of good if it's just bots, reading bots, man, it's not going to get a lot of fresh listeners or viewers on those things. And so I worry a lot about that. But I think that eventually humans, like I'm saying, you and I and people like people, that they will start to search out things that they know are authentic brands and people that they believe are still doing it from a human touch perspective, and that likely will have people gravitate into it.

(19:14):

So when I think about outside, I'm not suggesting that we won't use AI at all. I mean, we certainly are looking at areas of our business where we can use it, and I think there's areas that it's appropriate, and I think there's areas like storytelling and others that it's not appropriate. And so I think we've been pretty explicit with our freelancers about the use of it. Certainly with our own editorial teams, we have guidelines and everything that's created around it. But I do think humans will search out that original storytelling in the long run. And I think that's a place where outside and backcountry marketing podcast and other people will benefit from this because I think humans will be attracted to humans.

Cole Heilborn (19:58):

My theory, and let me know how you feel like this sounds, is that if the world becomes even more overwhelmed with content and then that content is created, it's fake, it's not rooted in reality. I feel like that would, my optimistic take is that we would seek out the real and the authentic and the real stories and the real documentaries even much more so because everything else we're living in is fabricated.

Robin Thurston (20:23):

Yeah, there's no question. And I think that's what's really hard about the dystopia line around things being too real. If you look at the deep fakes and things that are happening right now, in some ways it's pretty terrifying because I think humans are pretty good at identifying, but there starts to get some fuzzy lines, right?

Cole Heilborn (20:55):

Yeah, it gets confusing. What about advertising? I'm switching gears here a little bit, but we're talking about storytelling and we're talking about content. Do you feel like advertising, what role does that play in this idea of inspiration? Does it have a role?

Robin Thurston (21:07):

Yeah, I think it does. I mean, think brands can decide how they want to play in these spaces and how they want to motivate their consumers. I think about a program, we created a six-part series called the Ultimate Mountain Athlete with Toyota last year. We did the production, we did the casting, we did the filming, we did, and it was kind of like creating Warren Miller in a six part TV series for them. And I thought it was pretty authentic by them to want to create something that to me, ultimately inspired people to go outdoors. Yes, of course there were Toyotas in the filming, of course, I think about something I just got, part of the reason I was in LA was for the Defender Awards and we're a big part of their service awards. And I think about the voting and the messaging around that, and whether it was short form content, long form video that was created around it.

(22:11):

To me, this is, you look at these organizations that basically got $25,000 in a Land Rover that these means just some amazing organizations like search and rescue organizations, outdoor organizations. And I go, you can't do that without that brand. Can't, again, you could look at it in a bunch of different ways and see positives and negatives, but I go in the end watching the impact to those organizations when I was presenting the outdoor and sustainability award, which is the word we sponsor as part of it. I mean, these organizations are massively impacted, and these are small organizations, these are. And so again, I look at that and I go, there are many ways for brands to leverage their storytelling messaging into authentic experiences. I mean, take Warren Miller. We couldn't do Warren Miller without the partners that we have, whether it's tariffs, TerraX, Columbia, back country, we can't do that product. So if you don't have that backing, how do you go out and create that? Right? It's actually one of my concerns for brands in our space. I mean, I don't know, I'm assuming call you that you do some advertising like you will do reads in? Actually,

Cole Heilborn (23:40):

No, not really.

Robin Thurston (23:41):

Okay, fair.

Cole Heilborn (23:42):

But on the production company side, the business, I mean, we create ads.

Robin Thurston (23:47):

So

Cole Heilborn (23:47):

It's a world that we're very familiar with.

Robin Thurston (23:49):

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's one of my concerns about all the money going to performance marketing like Google and Facebook is, and I say this often, if you think about, I use this quite frequently in the past, which is if you're a brand, and I won't name any brands, and some have decided not to spend money with Facebook or Instagram or others, but if you're a brand, there is a point where at least 10 to 20 cents of every dollar you're spending with somebody like Facebook was going into the metaverse. And I'm like, if you're an outdoor brand, what are you going to sell in the metaverse?

(24:33):

Like a virtual jacket? Is that, I mean, I look at Nike just shut down that Web3 company that they bought. It was, I think it called sneakers or something. And I think about that, and I go like, I don't know, man. I think as these brands and these categories, you got to be thinking about how all your dollars go into businesses, yours, mine, others that are going to reinvest in this category, going to reinvest our dollars in getting people to be inspired to activate, to celebrate being in the outdoors. And so I think it's just really important. I think brands have got to align with what they want the ultimate outcome for the consumer to be. And I think it's important. But I do worry about all the dollars going to entities that frankly, in my opinion, do not care if you were outside. They do not. I mean, Facebook makes money, whether you're indoors or outdoors, man, they don't care. I mean, apple wants your phone to be on all the time because it makes money for basically every second you're on the phone. So it's definitely something I think about a lot. And I really applaud the advertisers who are supporting the publishers, videographers, freelancers that are in our categories because it's really important for us to continue doing what we're doing.

Cole Heilborn (26:00):

So these three ideas inspire, activate, celebrate. Do you feel like those are also applicable to the brand side, the consumer goods side? Is that something that brands could adopt? And I'm curious if you feel like those three themes, if you will, are future proof for whatever the future will bring.

Robin Thurston (26:17):

Yeah, I do think brands need to think about that cycle. I mean, the terminology they might think is slightly different, but I think that that cycle, when you do it well, I think people come back to your products. I think they come back, they're gravitated to it sort of completed the journey and the experience for them. I think that you have to, one thing we've been talking a lot about is some people might have feedback for us, we don't have enough beginner content as an example, like beginner inspiration. So we're trying to figure out, let's say, well, what do you like to do, Cole? What's your main outdoor thing? What's your big,

Cole Heilborn (27:00):

I really want to go surfing right now and I haven't been able to get out for quite some time. So that's currently at the forefront.

Robin Thurston (27:06):

So would you say you're intermediate, advanced surfer or no?

Cole Heilborn (27:10):

Oh, no, I'm definitely a beginner.

Robin Thurston (27:12):

Yeah. So my example is I might want to surf too, but I'm a total novice. I mean, I'm not standing up on the board the first time. I can promise you that. And I've done a little bit of surfing, but how you talk to that person in that journey is very different than the way as an advanced cyclist, you would talk to me from a content inspiration perspective. So I do think that's something that brands, and in our case we're thinking a lot about is you might have somebody, the average person in our audience does three sports a year. So that could be skiing, running, and hiking, or it could be snowboarding, mountain biking and kayaking. Do you know what I mean?

Cole Heilborn (27:55):

But

Robin Thurston (27:55):

They're at different parts of that journey. So if you assume because someone's an advanced mountain biker that they're an advanced kayaker, you're wrong. So it's like how you serve that up as a brand I think is really important because to keep them in that cycle and potentially trying something new, I think you got to really make sure that you're talking to them at the right level of where they're at in that journey from an experience perspective.

Cole Heilborn (28:21):

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, knowing your audience is everything. If you're not speaking the same language, it doesn't work. No, it's misaligned

Robin Thurston (28:32):

A hundred percent.

Cole Heilborn (28:32):

Do you feel that's something that I wonder about is brands, do they know their audiences well? Do they know them down to that level of detail where they can speak to a novice surfer and an intermediate trail runner, be the same brand, but speak to both the, I know I guess a company that makes trail running shoes and surf equipment probably doesn't exist, but if they did, do brands know that much? Are they that detailed?

Robin Thurston (28:58):

Do I think brands understand their audiences really well? No, I think we're still on a journey where, and again, this is part of the dilemma, which is more and more customer data has upsides and downsides. That's the whole thing around privacy and security and how we think about it even on the social platform that we built. We want the customer in total control of what they do and don't share. But for us at least, my view is that we are asking for that data to create a better experience around inspiration, activation, and celebration. Which again, I mean, it's hard for people to contend that spending time doing these activities is bad for you in any way. Whereas I could argue you're giving an awful lot of data to Instagram and to Facebook and to TikTok, and I would argue the outcome is exactly the reverse. There is a lot of downside to what it is that they're trying to get you to do next.

(30:00):

And so that's where a little bit, I think consumers also need to think about, and brands need to think about how are they thinking about the outcome of why they're asking for that data, what it is that they want out of that. If you're a nutrition company, maybe it's like you believe that same thing we do is by having more data on that consumer, you can serve better nutritional products to that person, and ultimately that potentially is rewarding for their health or things like that. But I think brands got to think through that very, very, very closely, a real challenge in this current environment about how people spend time and what data they're willing to share. Right.

Cole Heilborn (30:44):

Yeah, and I guess I see a parallel between that and your point earlier about every dollar that you spend is a vote for the world that you want to see. And I guess same way too with customer data, the data that we as users share is a vote also into what the future holds.

Robin Thurston (31:01):

Yeah, I mean, we're seeing it in real time, man. We are seeing it in real time.

Cole Heilborn (31:06):

You bring up the social platform, and I guess I want to migrate there a little bit. I think that's such a thinking about the idea of celebration and amplifying the stories that you're inspiring people with and then bringing all these worlds together seems like it makes a lot of sense from the business perspective of it all. If I can ask a candid question though, in an effort to get more people outside, do we really need another social media platform?

Robin Thurston (31:33):

Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I would say even some of our own team asked this question when we first started building it a couple of years ago. So my answer to this is the following. The first thing I would say is that our hope is that by building the platform, that people will spend less time with the other platforms that I think have very negative consequences. So I'm using example, if I can get you Cole to spend 15 or 20 of those minutes a week that you were spending on one of those other platforms, I think the outcome for you is a lot better. You're going to see what are you going to see on our platform? You're going to see stories about places you could go, places that you could activate, and you're going to see gear that you might need to go activate and have a great experience. You're going to see UGC from friends that so far, I mean I have got 286 followers on the platform. I have never seen anything on the platform that doesn't have to do with the outdoors or some type of activity. But again, we're not trying to replicate the same amount of time that you might spend in some of those other distribution channels. We ultimately want you to go activate. Right?

Cole Heilborn (32:44):

Gotcha. I mean, you can't control this as a platform, but one of the downsides to social media is comparison is a thief of all joy or the idea of fomo. And if I see someone out skiing an epic line in great powder, I'm like, my gosh, I wish I was doing that instead of what I'm doing currently. Is there a way that this platform, we're talking about the idea, the activation component, is there a way to get people to actually be able to go out and do the things through this platform rather than just creating this sense of frustration and comparing what you are doing versus what someone else is doing? Because that's a real part of social media that I know Instagram can't control, but that's just human behavior.

Robin Thurston (33:31):

Yeah, I mean, look, we are, yeah, I mean, humans are humans for sure. I would say that the things that we think about, first of all, it's not our goal to be a competitive platform. There are plenty of people out there that are trying to beat each other on the next hill type thing. That's not our goal.

Cole Heilborn (33:56):

Gotcha.

Robin Thurston (33:56):

But it's always a bit of a problem call.

Cole Heilborn (34:01):

Yeah, I mean you can't fix every problem. No. You mentioned at some point the idea that content is the thing that helps drive inspiration from more of the outside studio's perspective. Do you see investing in original content? Is that a play that you guys are looking to continue to do because of that reason?

Robin Thurston (34:22):

Oh yeah. I mean, I am just using an example like the Roadless Eaton with Biju Thomas, which is a show we're producing. We definitely do a fair amount of built if sold the Ultimate Mountain athlete that I think drives that. But yeah, I mean we have a fair amount of original content that we have slated for next year. Obviously we're doing more around live sports too, so our partnerships with us ski and snowboard, our partnerships with natural selection, with Red Bull, with Iron Man. So we're doing a fair amount of that because I do think when people watch these events like this weekend as Birds of Prey up in Beaver Creek, I think after that people want to go skiing. So I think it's a combination for us around licensed originals, paid, basically built if sold and live sports that will make up outside TV and all the distribution that we have with that. So that's not going anywhere for sure. I think that's a big part of the storytelling process. Video is, I mean, clearly mean we become a video society at some level.

Cole Heilborn (35:28):

How do you see outside TV in the whole host of streaming services out there? Do you see yourself as competitors with Netflix or Hulu? Do you see yourself as alternative but in a different world? How do you think through that?

Robin Thurston (35:43):

I mean, when you think about something like mind share or wallet share, even from a purchasing perspective. I mean, I think the one thing that I sort of encourage everybody in the outdoor industry to think about is we are up against all of these things. Your decision to buy a product in the outdoor category versus another category, you are up against that every single day. We are. Same thing with content. We are up against those decisions about, I'm using example watching Yellowstone versus an original program like the Roadless Eaton that might have more links to activation in it, the Roadless Eaton, but you're still making a decision as that consumer. So I would definitely say we're up against all of those players. I think that we do think we can find a niche and we can get people to that. And we obviously have our linear channel still.

(36:43):

We have local, have the fast channels that we're part of, obviously our owned and operated platform. So you got to think through your distribution really closely, which we continue to do. As you think about something like linear, I mean, man, people are unplugging faster than I can count on fingers. It's happening so fast, even though I would argue the experience is not necessarily better. Cable wasn't that bad, Cole, all the channels were there. A lot of the programming was funded by the way the fees were laid out. It's really hard to find stuff now. And that's one of the challenges that something like outside has is you got to figure out what's the right distribution. And by the way, it probably means that some of our content, like original content that we create, like Warren Miller, we will test in other channels. It could be that you could see Warren Miller on Netflix or in some other distribution channel because we still think it drives the same goal. Right.

Cole Heilborn (37:39):

So you don't see yourself as a competitor in that regard. It's just another platform. Yeah,

Robin Thurston (37:44):

We got to figure out the rate distribution ultimately.

Cole Heilborn (37:47):

What about the idea that all brands are media companies? That's a theory that some people hold out there and to be successful in today's world, you see brands becoming media companies and developing their own version of outside tv. What's your take? Do you see that as the only way forward for brands? And I know that's kind of a maybe strong language to use.

Robin Thurston (38:08):

Clearly there are some brands that have a lot of scale, Cole, so they can do a lot and they can get a lot of distribution on their own. I get a little bummed out when I see a brand who maybe has a great idea, they have maybe great storytellers, they have great maybe athletes or influencers that they're involved with. And you see a huge amount of money go into production huge, like big dollars. And then you go see it has like 300 likes on YouTube and you're like, I don't know if that paid off for them. I don't know if that, and so my concern is if you're not thinking through your distribution strategy, and by the way, a lot of that branded, I'm using example, if you're a big brand and you go to Netflix, they're going to see it as branded content. They're not going to take it.

(39:06):

I think we've tried to work with some partners with outside TV where there is some additional distribution of some great content that's out there. And I think maybe you look at the integrated people like Red Bull that are just so good at it, right? They're just amazing at it. Obviously very different model when you're doing 94% margin gross margins on sugar water. But the reality is it works and they create great content around that because it's all very, very integrated and great storytelling. But I think for the vast majority of brands, before you spend too much on production, I think you got to really think through distribution. I definitely see that a lot. I see a lot of brands spending so much money and not getting any return out of it from a distribution perspective.

Cole Heilborn (39:57):

Yeah. Well, it's not fun to think about. It's fun to think about the production component

Robin Thurston (40:03):

A hundred percent.

Cole Heilborn (40:04):

But distribution is necessary without distribution. There's no film. Yeah,

Robin Thurston (40:10):

A hundred percent.

Cole Heilborn (40:13):

If you had a controversial or a surprising take on the world of media and how it inspires us, I dunno, I'm curious to hear your thoughts as we slowly start to wind things down.

Robin Thurston (40:26):

Inspiring thought about media. I mean, I am still a big believer. Certainly I think about what we're trying to do as an organization and it's really hard. I try to communicate this to the staff. It's not just because we have a little bit of scale doesn't mean that it is for sure that we will succeed because it's really hard. I mean, no matter what size of business you are, I think in this environment, it's really hard to think about the path. But I would just say I'm a very big believer that great storytelling is and will be something that continues to drive the market. So I applaud, again, I can look across various categories and I can see some really great storytelling. I mean, I mentioned Yellowstone, but Taylor Sheridan and some of the stuff that he's done around even some of these shows, it's really, really well, I mean just amazing quality.

(41:37):

So I can look in different verticals and I can definitely see where it is really still working and that people and humans are attracted to it. So I guess I would just say I'm bullish on storytelling, but to me, in our space, it has to be linked through this journey. It has to be that you're trying from every piece of content to get into activation and from activation, how are you celebrating it? And so I would just say that the model, the models have to change to me to keep up with the times and how consumers are engaged. That

Cole Heilborn (42:18):

Makes sense.

Robin Thurston (42:20):

There's a funny, I dunno if specialize the brand bicycles, but they have this hearse that's a car that's out front that has all these skeletons and all things all over it. But it says on the side it says innovate or die. And I think they're one of the most innovative in the bike space. I just think the amount of r and d and design they put into is incredible. But I do think that businesses need to think a lot about that because I do think perfection is the enemy. Even if people think they are, trust me, I got a lot of critics. People think that I got a lot of dumb ideas, but I got to listen and work with the team and continue innovating through those cycles. I just think it's so critical to the world that we live in.

Cole Heilborn (43:12):

Are you familiar with the man in the arena quote or the story?

Robin Thurston (43:17):

No.

Cole Heilborn (43:17):

By Teddy Roosevelt,

Robin Thurston (43:19):

No.

Cole Heilborn (43:20):

Oh, okay. Well, it's one of my favorite quotes, and I should have it framed my office. But the idea is that it's the critic who counts. And really people who aren't in the arena, you shouldn't pay attention to their criticism because they aren't actually in the mud slogging through it. And even if you fail while you're in the arena, you still have achieved more than people on the outside. Could I think about that? Every time you hear criticism, it's very easy to criticize, especially in the creative industry. We always want to nitpick and say, oh, they could have done this better. I did a podcast interview with a fellow agency owner a while ago and he's like, why aren't we so critical? We should be a fan of what people are doing. And sure, maybe it could be better, maybe it could be different, but we got to support each other.

Robin Thurston (44:12):

I mean, especially in this industry. I mean, I think at the couple of the podcasts I've been on, I mentioned at the beginning, they were like, well, what do you think is the big transformational thing for the outdoor industry? And I said, look at 1.2 trillion. And again, you can slice that any way you want around the size of the industry. And a lot of that is obviously boating. And some of these categories, which to me are all still outdoors. You're still doing something in the sun and getting vitamin D and experience in the world and probably care about water quality and care about trees and things like this around. So, but I would argue we should be a much, much bigger industry. And to me that collectively means that we have to support each other. That's the part that I fear has gone away a bit. I fear, to your point, it's very easy to criticize. And I fear that as an outdoor industry, we have lost several generations now of people that maybe don't care as much about the outdoors. And that's scary for me. That's something that I hope that we can collectively come together and work on.

Cole Heilborn (45:26):

Well, maybe we need to tell some more stories that Ergon inspire the industry to rally together instead of nitpick with each other. A hundred

Robin Thurston (45:34):

Percent. Lots of easy ways to be critical. To your point,

Cole Heilborn (45:40):

We've talked about a variety of different things, Robin, but I love this framework that you've shared with us, this idea of inspire, activate, and celebrate, especially that celebrate component because it's a big deal when a brand does something new or innovative or an industry rallies together for a cause or an individual runs a 5K. Is there anything else you want to share with us as we end our time today on kind of that idea?

Robin Thurston (46:04):

I think what I would say about the celebrate part, and again, I'm not being, in this case, I'm not necessarily being critical of the other social channels and that you should only do it in one spot. But I would say that even for people that are not comfortable sharing, you should share because it might trigger a response from somebody else to want to go do these activities. So this is where I go back to, yes, as humans, we do have a bit of fomo. We do, we sort of want sometimes things that other people have. But I'd say in this category, you want that to happen, Cole, I want to see you surfing because it might make me go do it. So sometimes I know for a lot of people, I've had many people, I mean, I obviously was early in what I call the connected fitness space, starting map mine in 2005, 2006.

(47:04):

And a lot of people say to me like, well, I don't even use a device and I don't share anything. And I'm like, just remember, you probably have people around you that you could inspire, that you could inspire to ultimately activate. And when you celebrate that moment, that might trigger their inspiration that gets them going. So in this category specifically, I think it has a real residual benefit that ultimately leads to better health outcomes. Whether that be, I mean, I think the outdoors is good for your mental health, it's good for your physical health, it's good for all parts of your daily life. And so I just encourage people to share and celebrate those moments because hopefully other people want to do them.

Cole Heilborn (47:48):

Amazing. Robin, if folks want to follow along, if they want to work, you're on LinkedIn, I know you're everywhere, you're on the outside social media as well. Is there anywhere you'd recommend people go and find you or do you even want people to find you?

Robin Thurston (48:02):

Yeah, I mean, certainly I try to get back to people on LinkedIn. That's what call my primary business place where I get back to people. But I would say if you want the inside scoop on the things that I'm doing outdoors, then the outside social platform is a good way to do that. And you can find me there. You can just search under the search and find Robin Thurston.

Cole Heilborn (48:22):

Right on. Well, Robin, thank you for taking the time. Thanks for sharing a sneak peek into your world and the things you're working on and some of your framework and philosophy to this idea of inspiring people, the role that brands and advertising and storytelling all plays in that. So thanks for sharing,

Robin Thurston (48:36):

Cole. Thank you for the work you're doing. Every part matters. Every part of this in this ecosystem matters. So feel inspired every day that you get up doing what you're doing because it's important.

Cole Heilborn (48:47):

I mean, it's the dream really right to get to work in the place that you play. It's hard to beat that.

Robin Thurston (48:53):

It is. Look, I fortunately got lucky and I've been able to do it twice between map my fitness, and maybe I can say a third time I was obviously when I was a cyclist, it was really fun time for me too. But I'd say we are fortunate to be in this space and get to wake up every day and do this.

Cole Heilborn (49:12):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, with that, I'll leave it to it. And Robin, best of luck on the next adventure and maybe I'll, well, I probably won't see you on the bike. Maybe I'll see you on Zift. I need to get into that.

Robin Thurston (49:22):

Yeah, you got to get on Swift, man.

Cole Heilborn (49:24):

Yeah, the trails are too good though.

Robin Thurston (49:27):

Hey, trust me, I'll come to you. We'll ride some trails. I'm totally down. I mean, I kind of do it all. Gravel Mountain Road. So whatever you want to get into, I'm happy to get out there with you.

Cole Heilborn (49:37):

All right. We'll share it on social too. We'll get some other people out there with us.

Robin Thurston (49:40):

Okay. Awesome. All

Cole Heilborn (49:41):

Right. Bye Robin. See you.

Cole Heilborn (58:52):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share it with a friend or leave us a review on Apple.

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