Kristin Gavin (00:00):

We can no longer just rely on a single athlete or inspiring story to just say, oh, that's our brand. We're done more than ever. People are interested in what do you stand for? What is this company's mission? And being much more conscious consumers. And so I think brands need to do a better job of explaining not only just like, oh, we are inspiring you to get outside, but what do you stand for? What are your ethics? What are your ethos? It doesn't always just have to be the brand video as the hero piece. And that's it.

Cole Heilborn (00:30):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. I'm your host Cole Heilborn On this podcast, you'll hear from leaders in the outdoor marketing industry discuss the gritty details of their work, as well as the latest challenges and lessons they're learning along the way. If you want to hone your craft and become a stronger marketer, then this podcast is for you. This podcast is produced by Portside Productions, an outdoor film production company based in the Pacific Northwest. If you work at a brand or agency in the outdoor industry that needs help bringing a video project to life, head over to portside pro.com and send us an email we'd love to help.

(01:03):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Kristen Gavin. Kristen is the Director of production at Cotopaxi. Kristen, welcome to the show.

Kristin Gavin (01:11):

Hi, thanks for having me.

Cole Heilborn (01:12):

Yeah, it's good to see you. Thanks for taking the time to chat. I'm excited to dive into a conversation today. We're going to be talking about attention spans. We're going to be talking about this world of media in the outdoors, and I'm excited to hear from you how Cotopaxi is looking at the landscape of media and either reacting or analyzing or feeling out where everything is going. Not to put you on the spot, Kristen, but let's dive in. Can you give us an opening statement on when you think about the world of outdoor media, what do you think? What do you of, what do you feel? Is it exciting? Are you concerned? Kind of give us a high level statement or thoughts if you have any.

Kristin Gavin (01:56):

Yeah, sure. I think the single word that comes to my mind right off the bat is congested. I think that there's a lot of advertising and there's a lot of people in this space in the outdoor space and everybody's trying to talk over each other. And so I think it's really hard being in the outdoor space and finding your voice if you're not one of the big brands out there that already has established yourself as an outdoor company and have the credentials and the roster of people lined up. So I think it's really hard to break out and stake your claim that you're a legit outdoor brand with the space that we have. And then even from a marketing standpoint, I think that there's almost too many options to advertise yourself. And I think brands can get confused of what does this look like? And I think there's lots of rinse and repeat and mimicking of what's working for other brands for your brand. And so I think it's very busy and hectic right now, and I think it's challenging for newer up and coming younger brands to kind of pave a path that works best for them in this space.

Cole Heilborn (03:15):

Fascinating. Do you feel like that this busyness and the hecticness or the congestion as you used, has it always been this way or is this a unique time that you can recall?

Kristin Gavin (03:28):

I feel like it's a unique time because I feel like in the, let's say 10 years ago, in the early teens of the two thousands when video became social media really blew up and brand storytelling through video kind of really exploded. There were only a handful of outdoor companies that I felt like could even afford to do that and had the creative wherewithal to execute on that in a way that really made an impact. And so you saw that come to life with the North faces, the Patagonia, the Yetis of the world, really capitalizing on that moment and kind of really paving the way for brand storytelling in the outdoor space. And I think that that was really successful for those brands because there wasn't a lot of outdoor companies that were doing that. And then you get into the late teens and the early twenties, twenties and you see a lot of other brands starting to try to do that as well.

(04:34):

And then obviously Covid happens, and I think there hasn't been much change in the advertising landscape in the last 15, even 20 years of how brands are advertising themselves. There's still Instagram, there's still YouTube, there's TikTok now, but that's kind of a unique platform that we could spend a whole podcast just talking about that. But I think that we're still kind of trying to do what's been done over the past 15 to 20 years, and there's just more brands now trying to do that. And so I think there's a real question of is this still working the way that we're aligning and going out in the world from a marketing perspective, and are we showing up on the platforms that we're supposed to be showing up on in a way that is unique to our brand, or is it kind of just more of the same? So I think that it does feel like it's more than it used to be because there's so many more brands that are kind of catching on and trying to do what those bigger brands have already been doing for the past decade.

Cole Heilborn (05:47):

Yeah, fascinating. Okay, I'm really excited to dig into this. This is going to be interesting. Before we do, can you give us a quick background on your role with Cotopaxi and what you do?

Kristin Gavin (05:59):

Yeah, I'm the director of production at cotopaxi. I work really closely with the VP of Creative within the creative department on the brand side. So what that means is I oversee everything from strategy, how we're approaching campaigns, product launches from a visual perspective, how we're showing up on video and photo, and then executing those visions from the creative team. So holding the shoots and hiring out crews and overseeing post-production and making sure we're aligned cross-functionally within the company to make sure that everything is launching and aligned visually across all of our different platforms and departments.

Cole Heilborn (06:47):

To come back to this word congested as, and the way you talk about the outdoor landscape, you make it sound like Cotopaxi. I think a lot of people would look at Cotopaxi and say, this is a fairly robust, a newer company, but you guys are well established, but the way you talk about this congested landscape makes it sound like Cotopaxi is still trying to feel out what type of media do we produce? What is our strategy, what is our plan? Is that true? I guess that may is surprising to hear because I feel like you guys are, you're real. It's not like you're in startup mode.

Kristin Gavin (07:22):

Yeah, and I think so yes, that is true. Cotopaxi has been around for 10 years and 10 years may sound like a lot, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not. I think any brand has multiple stages of evolution and Cotopaxi is in that right now. I mean, we expanded and then we covid hit and it's like, okay, wait, what are we doing? And I think there's lots Company has moments of expansion and then coming down and deflating and then expanding again. And I think no matter what size of company you are or how long you've been around, I think there's always this question of like, wait, are we doing the right thing? Are we showing up in the right places? Is our consumer still the same as it used to be? And Cotopaxi is doing that right now. Cotopaxi is very much still diving into who our target consumer is, who's buying Cotopaxi?

(08:21):

Is it the person that we want it to be or that we think it is? I think Cotopaxi, our data has shown that our consumer or the general population is unsure of who Cotopaxi is. Are we an outdoor company? Do we play? Are we like the North Face? Are we trying to play with Arc TerraX? And the answer is no. We are not a super technical brand, but we do live in the outdoor space. We are an approachable brand, we are joyful. We are for people who maybe haven't had the resources to go outside but want to go outside and we want to be that company, that brand that brings these people that haven't always had the opportunities to the outside and make products for them that are legit products that stand up to the elements but maybe are more approachable from not just a pocket side of things, but also just they look different. They don't scream that I'm like going to go climb Everest, for instance. And so I think that we are very much in the space of exploring who we are and how we show up what our voice is. And that's very much part of what my role is and what I'm trying to focus on is how do we bring that to life visually and how do we stake a claim and make it very clear what COTOPAXI stands for.

Cole Heilborn (09:56):

How do you feel like that goal is going? Trying to define visually who Cotopaxi is?

Kristin Gavin (10:02):

Yeah, we are in the thick of it, I'll tell you that. It is an ongoing process. I think it's good in the sense that we're having these conversations. I think we need to be having these conversations internally of saying, who are we in a sentence? Who is epoxy and what is our mission? What is our goal? There's a lot of different facets about Epoxy that make that answer hard because we're not just an outdoor brand. We actually have a do good mission. We have a foundation, we are a B Corp. We are changing the landscape of how companies can operate and still be a for-profit company. So there's all this mission side of Cotopaxi that should be communicated in addition to this outdoor technical apparel PACS product specific conversation. So how do you tell and ride the wave of both of those and make sure people know what you stand for? So we're in the thick of it. I think we're making good headway on figuring out and answering some of these big questions, but it's definitely something that we're still very much shaping.

Cole Heilborn (11:15):

You mentioned that you feel like the outdoor world is kind of, maybe we're in a rut and we have been for the last 10 or 15, 20 years about how we advertise. If you could describe the most, the classic or the traditional rut that maybe we all fall into, how do you think about that? How do you describe that?

Kristin Gavin (11:31):

Yeah, I think when I think about that, it's kind of just the standard deliverables of tell a brand, tell a story, an outdoor story. Find somebody in the outdoors doing something active. Have them go film a short story, make a few cut downs, put that on social, maybe make a few paid ads and that's it. That's your campaign. I feel like that's the rut that a lot of brands fall into of tell one brand story that shows somebody doing something active in our product and we leave it at that and try to put some paid money behind it and some ads. I'm an avid outdoors person as well. I'm in this space, I live it, I breathe it. It's one of the reasons why I like working in it. I feel like I am a target consumer. I'm consuming this type of media as well from all of other brands, and it just gets old from a consumer standpoint.

(12:27):

It's like you can only watch so many people in the outdoors doing cool things, riding cool mountain bikes, climbing cool climbs, jumping off peaks. It is kind of like, at this point, I feel like almost every story has kind of been told to one way or the other where I feel like that's the rut that we're in is finding unique stories, but not only finding unique stories, but telling them in a unique way. And I feel like right now what's really making me stop scrolling from a consumer standpoint is the execution of that story. So we're talking about how a video is edited, the music that they do, the editing style. I feel like we can't just be subpar with the way that we're producing content. It needs to truly be unique from everything from the production all the way through editing to make somebody stop scrolling. But then also thinking about how are new ways that we can show up print or are there other ways that we could be using social media or paid or pr? Are there other ways, touch points that we could get to consumers that we as the outdoor company or brands haven't really paid a lot of attention to in the last decade?

Cole Heilborn (13:54):

Okay. I'm going to give you kind of an interesting question. If I say the word brand storytelling, what's the first word that pops into your head?

Kristin Gavin (14:01):

Yeti.

Cole Heilborn (14:03):

Okay, let me clarify my question. If I say the word brand storytelling, what's the first emotional response or reaction? Not necessarily a brand associated, but does it excite you? Are you like, oh guys, we've been here before?

Kristin Gavin (14:17):

I do get excited. I mean, being a producer, as much as I can talk about that brand storytelling isn't a rut and we should be looking at other things at the end of the day, I'm also consider myself a creative, and I love producing brand stories and I love shooting beautiful films and telling people's stories, and the human experience is inherently storied. And so I think it's in our nature to tell stories and I think that we should continue doing that. So I think my first reaction to your question is excited. It's always something that I'm pitching is that we should be telling stories, but I also think paralleled with the excitement is this daunting feeling of how can we do this in a way that is not just adding to the junk mail of everybody's social feeds. We don't want to just, how can we stand out unless this is going to be really good, then we shouldn't pursue it.

Cole Heilborn (15:28):

Interesting. I love that filter and I think it's a worthy question to ask. Is brand storytelling, is it still viable? Does it work or is it just, have we just kind of fallen into this trap of producing, as you said, the same stories over and over and over again? But it sounds like there's still some part of you that feels like it has potential, but maybe we just need to really clarify what is worthy of worthy sounds too pretentious, everyone's story is important, but what really makes the cut?

Kristin Gavin (16:00):

Yeah, I think so. I think it's what really makes the cut, but I also think it's a larger question of what is the whole plan? What is the strategy here? What is the entire content plan? It's obviously not just a video. I think Code Epoxy has done a good job and we have this mission part of our company, and along with videos that we're putting out, we usually have a follow-up article or blog post on our impact side of our website that further dives into an issue or something that we're solving or how we're helping people in this area. And so what I think we could get better at is telling more of that story and pushing people to those pages more. And so I think there needs to be, the video is just the tip of the iceberg for the rest of the content that needs to be telling a larger story.

(16:59):

I don't think we can no longer just rely on a single athlete or inspiring story to just say, oh, that's our brand. We're done. I think more than ever, people are interested in what do you stand for? What is this company's mission? What is your footprint on the world? And being much more conscious consumers. And so I think brands need to do a better job of explaining not only just like, oh, we are inspiring you to get outside, but what do you stand for? What are your ethics? What are your ethos? And how is that coming to life in all these different facets of this campaign? So I think that there just needs to be more emphasis on the supporting deliverables for any one brand video, for instance. And it doesn't always just have to be the brand video as the hero piece, and that's it.

Cole Heilborn (17:58):

Yeah. So kind of walk us through how that works internally, and I guess if we're going to pick on Cotopaxi, you're saying we need to have more strategy and more of a robust plan around these pieces that if we are going to tell the story, then we got to do it. How does that work inside the company? How do you build internal support around these stories? You might look at a story and say, oh, team, this is amazing. We need to get behind this, but what does that actually look like? I think maybe from the outside folks might not really understand what that takes to rally an internal team. Maybe it's easier than I'm alluding to, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Kristin Gavin (18:35):

Yeah, it's not easy. I think it is a hodgepodge of different things. So using Code Epoxy as an example, co Epoxy is quite small. Our teams are very small. So yes, we do have an in-house, small creative team, very small production team, but we by large partner with outside agencies, outside production companies. And so there is a mixture of our internal team, our internal creative team and myself kind of pitching, this is what we should create, these are the stories we should tell, and this is maybe the way we believe it should show up. But me as a director of production, I more and more want to partner with production companies or even an agency on a project and say, what are your thoughts? How should we be showing up in different areas besides Instagram, besides just a video? Where should we be showing up on paid in an interesting way?

(19:38):

Is print interesting? How is print interesting? What should we be doing there? And trying to get some bigger, broader buy-in and eyeballs from a creative standpoint. I think if you have really good creative concepts that have some data to back it up of like, this is a good idea because that is what's going to make everybody go, oh, okay, that's exciting. And I think right now we struggle to find that. I have struggled to find that in a production company or even an agency to say, pitch me on this and pitch me how you think we should show up and what those assets might look like. I think more and more I find that production companies or agencies are looking to be told what they need to create and then just saying, this is what it looks like versus pitching us a great idea and saying, this is how we think you should show up and why.

Cole Heilborn (20:37):

Interesting. So would you prefer that you were approached and given ideas and distribution plans? Is that what you're saying?

Kristin Gavin (20:46):

Yeah, I think that would be really helpful. And then I think our team, given that we're so small, I think then we can kind of react and then adjust and have a conversation about what makes sense. But

(21:01):

Brands have a lot going on and creative teams within brands are oftentimes working on multiple things at lunch from a creative execution standpoint. And so we don't always have the bandwidth to be super focused on one campaign or one product launch. And I think that's why we partner with outside agencies to help give more brain juice to these ideas because we don't necessarily have the time or the bandwidth to do that ourselves. And so as much as I would love to completely own some of that stuff, I think it's good to ask for help and get outside ideas of what this could look like in order for us to stay fresh and relevant too from a visual standpoint. So we're not always doing the same thing.

Cole Heilborn (21:49):

You don't have to divulge any secrets or million dollar ideas. I guess you could if you wanted to, but what are we overlooking in this outdoor media marketing world? I feel like brand storytelling was kind of like this. I dunno, this interesting unique approach a while ago, right? What's the next thing? Is there a next thing? Have you talked to people? Do you have any insights or conversations that you feel like if you could look at a crystal ball and predict where this all goes and kind of what the next new fun format is, is there something else out there? Or as you said before we started recording, have we kind of arrived at the summit of media possibilities?

Kristin Gavin (22:35):

Yeah, I think to your first question of have we miss something, I do think that when agencies and even production companies pitch ideas, they're often missing what the ROI is. It's usually it seems very self-serving. It's like, oh, I want to go to this location and shoot this thing and it's going to be gorgeous and it's going to look this way and it's going to be beautiful, and Cotopaxi could be part of this or whatever brand, it can be part of this. And yes, it's visually stunning, but why do you think that that would be successful? What do you think we need to do to make that successful? Where do we show up from a media plan? And I'm not saying that production companies or agencies need to have a media planner or anything, but I think what we're missing is content creators not understanding the platforms in which content shows up.

(23:35):

I think what I am always striving to find is a director or they have an editor that says, Hey, I know, let's just say Instagram the back of my hand. I know the algorithms, I know the editing style. I know what we need to do to capture people's minds, attentions and hearts on this fast pace platform. This is why you have the portfolio, you have the data, the results from previous projects to show that there's ROI, there's outcome. And I think that we're missing that people who are not only masters of their craft, but I think part of that craft needs to be like, where does that content live? And really understanding that platform and saying, I know what we need to do to make this work on Instagram or your website or print. If you have made amazing print catalogs or direct mailers or whatever it is that really stand out, I think that's what we're missing are people who not only are great at capturing the content, but also really educated and informed about the ever-changing landscape of all the varied platforms that it may stand out on.

(24:59):

So I think that's kind of where we're missing something as far as what the next thing is, I think it's part of that. I think it's like we have all these platforms. We have these social media platforms, we have all these great sites and ways to reach consumers. We've never reached them before. We have AI that's creating super personalized custom content for people, and that's only going to expand and get more relevant as we proceed. And I think that the next big thing is going to be how do we create really unique content on these platforms that is different than what we've done before versus being like, oh, it's a two minute video with a 32nd cutdown. It's like, well, no, what if we splice that differently? What if it was different? What if you went somewhere to a different page and it was tons of different content and a really interactive website that people wanted to scroll through and it told a bigger story and it had all these interactive components. People want more personalized, tailored content. And I think the next big thing will be how do we leverage some of the AI capabilities, these social media platforms to create really fun and engaging content that is more than just a video. It's a mixture of everything. It's copy, it's video, it's photography, and I think that's the next thing. I think that's what we're going to start seeing is more digital experiences coming to life.

Cole Heilborn (26:54):

Interesting. Do you feel like, so this is something I think about, someone said this on the podcast a while ago. They said, we live in a world that's hyperconnected, yet we're all so disconnected at the same time. And it seems like while that's disappointing and sad and maybe a reflection on society, it also seems like an opportunity for brands to, I don't want to say replace the need of family and friends and wholesome relationships, but to play a piece in filling that need. And as you're talking, I'm thinking there's this need out there. What if a brand could fill a part of that through a really fascinating story or really and a really fascinating digital experience, and maybe it's coupled with this great cause or this great foundation project that seems like a very cohesive, well thought out top, middle and bottom of the funnel project. I mean, what gets in the way of pulling something like that off? I mean, I guess off the top of my head, I can think about, well, you got to have an interesting story that's actually really, really good. You got to have an internal team that's rallying together to pull this off. What else am I missing?

Kristin Gavin (28:07):

I mean, budget of course is always

(28:10):

The point. Making sure that you have the money to show up in all those different ways. I mean, I think events can be incredibly powerful, and I think events are a great way for brands to really put their money where their mouth is and be on the ground and be like, we're here. We're showing up. We're not just writing a check. We're putting in the time and the effort. And because of social media, we are able to connect with the consumer in a way that we weren't able to before social media, you can actually write in the comments and respond to people that are talking with your brand. And people love that. People love thinking, like believing that they are talking with a brand, that they have some influence, some connection, and they're hearing back and having a conversation. And I think when to put that a step further, let's do it in person.

(29:04):

Let's show up at events, let's hold events. And I think that can be incredibly powerful of bringing people together in person. And I think that's why film festivals are a great way to do that, but I think even outside of that is showing up and doing that as well. So yeah, I think it's a whole environment and ecosystem that needs to happen for larger brand storytelling to say, this is who we are. And I think doing things that are in person and showing up in a unique way digitally is the way to do that. For sure.

Cole Heilborn (29:39):

You mentioned that word connection, and I wonder if that's kind of the future. We're all seeking connection, and I think the intention with the stories that brands have told is to build a connection with their audience, but maybe what we move into and what we see ourselves transitioning into is ways to build that connection even stronger and maybe deeper and in a way that cuts through all the congestion that's out there. Does that word strike you as being important in whatever you see as this future?

Kristin Gavin (30:08):

Yeah, I totally think so. And I think that is a main goal of Code Epoxy is to build that connection. We want people to resonate with our Do Good mission with our foundation and what we're trying to do on a larger scale globally. And I think through that, that's our end to creating that connection and that brand love to continue to purchase from Co Epoxy or donate to Co Epoxy. So yeah, I think connection's, everything. I think connection to the brand, connection to the ethos, connection to each other is what will ultimately make a brand live.

Cole Heilborn (30:55):

If you, let's say in three years you and I were having a follow-up conversation and everything, you could envision this perfect reality where everything at Cotopaxi was working and working beautifully, and you guys have figured out this amazing way to build connection with your customers and you've figured out how to find and tell these amazing stories that have all these ways to connect and tie the brand and the foundation together. I'd be curious if you could describe in as much detail, what does that future look like and what are some of the key pillars that you think are necessary for that state to be possible?

Kristin Gavin (31:35):

That is a big question. I think ideally what that looks like is that people have a clear understanding of who Code Epoxy is, that we are telling a very clear and concise story brand story of who we are, what our mission is and what we sell. I think the pillars to make that happen are we need to be louder about our mission statement. We need to be louder about the do good part of our company. People by and large don't know what Cotopaxi does on that end and what we're doing to alleviate poverty in Latin countries. And so I think we need to spend the time and the money to tell that story louder and build up that knowledge from a customer standpoint.

(32:39):

And I also think we are always improving our product. We're just getting better Pax Apparel. I think we need to focus on instead of expanding those lines, just making the line really, really good. So less is more kind of approach. And so I think it'd be better to go out with a smaller assortment of apparel, for example, but have it be really, really good apparel that fits really well, performs exceptionally well. In my ideal world, we would have assets, top funnel assets that clearly define what our mission is. We would have great product improvements and a solid product line, and we would be focusing on pushing the boundaries of brand marketing. So I think Epoxy is one of those brands that really is just kind of starting to tap into some of the brand storytelling and some of these things that brands have been doing for a long time and it feels really fresh to Code Epoxy because they haven't really done that.

(33:58):

We haven't really found an athlete or that person that has a great story and we're telling this amazing brand story with them. It's happened in different ways. We've told a few stories, but it hasn't shown up in a large capacity from a brand awareness standpoint. And I think we might be better off served skipping that stepping stone that a lot of brands are doing and saying, what is the next thing? What makes sense for Code Epoxy? Where do we, do we just move on and what is that next thing for us? How can we show up in a unique way? For us, I would say our audience is unique and we should be showing up in a different way to meet the audience needs and where they are at. So meeting them at, I don't think that the average consumer for epoxy is the same as it is for the North Face, for instance. So I think that's my dream world is that we would feel confident in the shoes that we're standing in and the brand story that we're saying, and we can confidently market who we are and know where to show up and win.

Cole Heilborn (35:13):

Do you feel like a lack of connection in just marketing in general, does that lead to a congested marketing landscape? Is that why there's so much congestion out there?

Kristin Gavin (35:27):

Sorry, say the first part of the question again.

Cole Heilborn (35:29):

Yeah, I feel like a lack of connection between brands and their audience is what has led to all of the congestion. Maybe we aren't sure who our audience is, or maybe we aren't sure what our audience wants to hear from us. And so we just put stuff out into the world hoping that some of it sticks, some of it resonates, and that's what contributes to the volume. Or is, is that not true? Is there not a connection there?

Kristin Gavin (35:57):

I don't know if I fully believe that. I mean, I think no doubt brands can always be doing a better job about continually looking into who their target customer is and where they're showing up. I think it stems more from brands and the people within those brands being hyperfocused on competition and wanting to be other brands. I think it's like people even like me saying, wow, Patagonia is killing it. We need to be like Patagonia. What's Patagonia doing? Let's do what Patagonia's doing versus saying Patagonia's killing it. How did they get to that point where they're killing it? What makes them successful and why and how can we maybe look through the lens of how we might believe they did? What's our hypothesis of how they decided to come to that marketing strategy and how can we maybe look at our situation through a lens like that and come up with something unique for our brand? I feel like people are inspired by what other brands are doing and set out to go do what they're doing. And I think that's why we see so much kind of rinse and repeat with content is because there's no pull or direction or new ideas coming in that are really saying to do otherwise.

Cole Heilborn (37:33):

I think about that from a team perspective or a team dynamic in general. What leads to a lack of fresh ideas in an organization? Is it because we're all just, it's the same people year after year who are just contributing the same ideas? Are we not looking outside of our industry for other inspiration? Are we not bringing different people into the fold to shake up what's happening? Maybe it's a combination of those. Is there anything that sticks out to you?

Kristin Gavin (38:05):

I think it's a combination of all of 'em. I think the one thing that you didn't mention is time. I feel like it takes a lot of time and to really curate a strategy, to curate a plan, and things are moving fast all the time, and especially when you have a small team like I do at Code Epoxy, we don't have the luxury of time to spend six months ideating around us one singular campaign. And so I think that's probably the number one problem is that getting truly creative and innovative takes a lot of time, and I don't think that brand teams always have the luxury of that and putting the time towards thinking really outside the box. So I think that's one. I also think because of Covid, a lot of the outdoor companies are just in a precarious situation. We're not necessarily willing to take a chance on something new because there isn't proof that that will work.

(39:10):

Is it the gamble that we want to play right now? Right now a lot of companies are playing it safe and are trying to do things that are tried and true feel safe. Things like other brands have done this. It's easier to get approval on things that have been done and tested before. So I think that's another aspect that's really hard about being truly innovative and proposing something outside of the box. And then the idea of, yes, working with people outside of the industry. I think hearing from different voices, I think it is important to be working with people who know the space, know the outdoor space and where you want to show up, but hearing from different voices, women, people of color, different backgrounds, I think is a huge thing that luckily the outdoor area have really started to do a lot better job of and making those voices heard and telling those stories. So I do think that that is improving, but is something we could always work upon is having other people that maybe haven't always had a voice in the outdoor industry giving them a voice.

Cole Heilborn (40:28):

On the last episode we had on the show was with Kevin Knutson, he's an art director at Eddie Bauer, and we talked a lot about the idea that you just mentioned, which is brands are, especially in today's age, we're kind of playing it safe and that lack of risk leads to everyone rushing to the middle of the media landscape. If folks want to dig more into that episode, I highly recommend you go check it out. It's really interesting. But he's talking to what you're mentioning here, which is like if we're all playing it safe and we're not taking risks, then we're all justs rinsing and repeating everything that's been done before, which I think is really, it's an easy position to take when you're on a podcast and you kind of want to have a bit of a soapbox and say, oh, come on guys, let's do better. But I think it's interesting to hear from your perspective of what it actually takes to do these things internally. It takes a lot of work. It takes a ton of time, it takes a lot of resources, and it's easy to maybe say, but it's much harder to actually do.

Kristin Gavin (41:33):

Yeah, it is a lot harder to do, and I think it is a lot harder to find those people that want to have a voice, that want to have a say and align with the company, align with what you're trying to do. So there's just so many different boxes that we're always trying to check to make sure that we are going about it the right way and telling the right stories from the right people in the right way. So yeah, it's definitely complex.

Cole Heilborn (42:02):

So as you think about where the industry is going, wrapping things up here, yeah, I mean, what are your thoughts? You sound optimistic, you sound excited about where things are going, albeit maybe a slightly cautious and aware of the responsibility that it would take to actually move in that direction. Do you have any final thoughts or any lasting thoughts for the audience?

Kristin Gavin (42:23):

Yeah, I think we're on the precipice of an explosion of new content coming out. I mean, I think AI is already changing the landscape of marketing and content creation, and I think in the next five years even, we're going to see a complete change in overhaul of how brands and marketers come to the table and create content for their audiences. And so it feels daunting, but it's also exciting to be part of that. I'm excited for more multimedia experiences. I'm excited that in our internal discussions we're talking about print again and how can we make that exciting? And I think viewers are just with clothing. Fads happen with marketing. I think print kind of died as digital media kind of exploded, and now I feel like there is this want or this nostalgia for print in a cool way, and I think that's exciting. Again, I feel like there's constantly new opportunities of kind of coming at things that were once old and making them new again.

(43:44):

And I kind of feel like while AI is something new, I feel like there's also these old things that are getting reinvented in a new way. And so I guess my final thoughts are keep creating and thinking and educating yourselves on platforms and how things are being successful and where things are going. And it's not just about getting the beautiful shot, but it's about how that shot shows up and comes to life across an entire campaign. And yeah, I just think that we're in a great area to kind of push envelope, and I think brands are going to be the ones to say, this is how we should market, and hopefully we can be proactive in that versus reactive to where social media and content goes. So my hope is that all outdoor brands can kind of take the reins and steer the ship of where brands show up and kind of own that space.

Cole Heilborn (45:00):

Okay. One final question for you. If you could share with us one conviction that you have that you believe with a hundred percent about this world of media and marketing, and then share one question that you would love to have answered for yourself. We'll end it there.

Kristin Gavin (45:17):

I think my one conviction would be that people love to feel connection with brands. People want connection. They want brands to align with their interests, their hobbies, their ethics, their ethos. And I think people feel really proud when they purchase from companies who achieve and mark all those boxes for them. I think people feel pride in wearing product from companies that align with all of those personal thoughts, feelings, convictions. So I think that would be my thing that I feel is a hundred percent true.

Cole Heilborn (46:04):

Is it

Kristin Gavin (46:06):

Question for myself? Is it for myself or for the industry?

Cole Heilborn (46:12):

Either or?

Kristin Gavin (46:14):

Gosh, I don't know. I guess my question is maybe for the industry of where, what is our main goal in being in the outdoor space? Is it to get people in the outdoors, new people in the outdoors? Or is it to enhance consumerism is kind of my big question, and I think I know what the answer to that is, but I think that would be the answer that I would always put to any company. I think if every company asked that, it would be interesting to see how that would change their marketing.

Cole Heilborn (46:55):

Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Kristen, thank you for sharing the time. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I don't have an answer to your question, but I'll think about it and let you know if I come up with anything.

Kristin Gavin (47:04):

Okay, sounds good. Thanks for having me.

Cole Heilborn (47:07):

Have

Cole Heilborn (47:07):

A good day.

Kristin Gavin (47:08):

You too.

Cole Heilborn (47:09):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share it with a friend or leave us a review on Apple.

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