Kyle Pusateri (00:00):

In terms of where we're going and what we're seeing is that first six seconds is just imperative. And when I say that, I mean most notably for social, focusing on what's the hook, what's a way to keep them engaged and excited, and then to continue watching, just the attention spans, as we all know are just decreasing. How do we hook them? And then for a longer term play, how do we keep the corporate needs, the audience needs, those insights and also media strategy. How do we keep all of those in mind and then find that sweet spot.

Cole Heilborn (00:31):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast. I'm your host Cole Heilborn. On this podcast, you'll hear from leaders in the outdoor marketing industry discuss the gritty details of their work as well as the latest challenges and lessons they're learning along the way. If you want to hone your craft and become a stronger marketer, then this podcast is for you. This podcast is produced by Portside Productions, an outdoor film production company based in the Pacific Northwest. If you work at a brand or agency in the outdoor industry that needs help bringing a video project to life, head over to portside pro.com and send us an email we'd love to help.

Cole Heilborn (01:04):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast from Portside Productions. Today I'm sitting down with Kyle Pusateri, he is the lead producer over at Garmin. Kyle, welcome to the show.

 Kyle Pusateri (01:13):

Thanks so much for having me, Cole. I'm so excited to be here. I've had this circled on my calendar for weeks now, so super excited to chat with you today.

Cole Heilborn (01:20):

Well, you can tell you're in production. I think you're one of the only people who have shown up with a shotgun mic hooked up to your microphone for this interview, so you're ready to go.

 Kyle Pusateri (01:30):

That's right. And you know what, Cole? I'm not, I'm in production, but I'm also a whole asser. I don't do anything half ass. So honestly, if we're going to do it, we're going to do it right and we're going to prepare and want to make sure that this is the best opportunity for us to have a rich, thorough conversation today. So I wanted to person just say, Hey, congrats on approaching 200 episodes, that Quest is such a testament to your hard work and the great things that you're doing. Listening to your most recent fireside chat, just about the momentum that you're taking into 2025 got me so pumped up and I'm excited, man, because you're preaching the exact thing that I think a lot of us in the outdoor industry and production need to have. I mean, it's a chance to start new and take the learnings from our past and really carry it forward. So I listened to your five star chat twice on the way into my commute into Garment today. And listen, I just think that you've got the right attitude and keep it up because it's been fun to follow along and to really get to know you. So excited to dive into it today.

Cole Heilborn (02:31):

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate those kind words. I mean, it's not just me. We've got a good team behind us that are helping make this show happen. And I mean, we wouldn't have a show if it wasn't for every single guest who took an hour out of their day to actually sit down and do these. So that's interesting. You bring up feeling optimistic about the next year, and I feel like so much of what we try to do on this show is try to unearth, try to make sense of everything, the marketing world as a whole within that, the creative world within that, the production world. And what I've come to realize, and I've known this for a long time, is there is no one way to do it. There's no one way to succeed. There's no one recipe to build a really strong brand with great stories and great creative.

(03:14):

It's kind of to choose your own adventure path. And I think that used to really bother me. I used to be like, no, I want to understand the way, but now I'm like 20, 25. It's up to us. We just get to decide. We can learn from everything. We can look at people that are doing it well and then figure out how to adapt and make it work for us. And so I think that's why I'm excited is if your outlook is negative, things are going to be negative and I'm trying to change that about myself also. I think that's why I feel good is we can make it what we want it to be.

 Kyle Pusateri (03:49):

Absolutely. And that optimism is infectious, honestly, people around you, we can sense it, you can feel it when people sense this idea of hope and that there's a bigger, brighter tomorrow. And I think you've learned along the way we all have and capitalizing on our experiences and how to do things differently. I mean, our business, especially in production, you're right, there isn't a set formula. There's a process that we all follow on certain steps and milestones, but at the same time, it's putting our own unique creativity on how we get to the end result and putting forth our best effort to get there. So I'm excited to get into it because I feel like the approach I take is pretty straightforward. I'm a straight shooter. I'm definitely one of those guys who is going to tell you how it is, but be respectful of the creative process and artists that work together. So it's a delicate balance, but especially in production because we are only have a finite amount of time, budget and people's resources around us. So it's really trying to maximize all of that for a short window.

Cole Heilborn (05:00):

Well, you bring up the approach and that's kind of what I'm excited to dig into today. Portside has been doing commercial work in the outdoor space for the last eight or nine years now, and what I've come to realize is everyone approaches production differently. There are some brands that can't scrape together a hundred dollars to do a shoot, and there's other brands that spend millions of dollars to do a shoot. And I'm excited to unpack what is it like to produce stuff at Garmin because there's so many ways that things get created and the creative process is fun and it's messy. And I think externally, a lot of people have questions of how do people actually produce things internally, and I feel like brands all come from a different place. Either they have a really big in-house team, they do everything in house, some of them have an in-house team and they outsource key campaigns.

(05:51):

Some people don't have anyone in-house and production teams or agencies are working with marketing directors. Some brands work through an agency who hires a production company. There's no one way to do it. And we've started to allude to that on this show as we've been digging more into the creative process. And so honestly, all the questions I have for you today are just kind of a smorgasbord of like, let's unpack what is it like to be a producer at Garmin and go from there. So if your game, my first question, if you only have two words, how would you describe

 Kyle Pusateri (06:23):

Production? Efficient and creative? Those are from a production standpoint, producer standpoint, that's my mo, right? How can we get in and make the most of what we have available to put forth our best work? Because we all know if we had endless time, endless budget, endless resources, we could make the best work of our lives. But that's not reality. So really thinking about how can we be efficient with the creative that we need to execute.

Cole Heilborn (06:49):

I love that. Tell me more about what your role is as a lead producer. What do you do?

 Kyle Pusateri (06:55):

Sure. So if it's okay, I might back up a little bit because it's a little bit of a journey on how I got to my current role. Starting back from the university days, my uni days, I went to the University of Missouri in Columbia, Mizzou, MIZ if you're familiar, and went to the Missouri School of Journalism. I studied strategic communication within the journalism school. It was a great chance to meet folks from all over the world and some really talented creative people and had a chance to see and understand how investigative brand journalism sort of works. After college, I did the agency game in Kansas City, so went around actually as an account person, so built my career as an account person through some of the agencies here in Kansas City and then transitioned to Garmin and actually came in also as an account person. But as of nearing five years ago, I was transitioned to a producer role. What's great about what I do here and fully admit that we've got an awesome team of about a hundred folks who are in the creative department at Garmin, and there are 20,000 associates at Garmin worldwide. So we're a small in-house agency, which is really nice to have all of the resources and team fully.

Cole Heilborn (08:14):

So yes, you were on the account side, you moved to the producer side. I've often heard that when you ask a producer what they do, we all just kind of shrug our shoulders and we're like, well, it's like we do a lot of different things. How do you begin to think about your role as a producer? What do you do?

 Kyle Pusateri (08:32):

Whatever it takes to execute the creative the best way that the team envisions? Honestly, that's my motivation. It's waking up every day saying, okay, how do we move this project forward? How do we address the concerns, the needs that the team has? How can we make sure that we're on track and being that voice of reason for them and anytime they may have some doubt or have questions and being that support system,

Cole Heilborn (09:01):

If you could illustrate the org chart for us, this is where I think it gets really interesting and maybe you can kind of peel back the curtain. So you're within a creative department or you're within production, which is within creative, which is within marketing, is that right?

 Kyle Pusateri (09:15):

Close? So we are formerly Marcom, now creative. There are about a hundred of us here at Garmin at HQ in Kansas City, just outside of Kansas City and Olathe, Kansas is where HQ is located. We work with many teams all over the world, 86 different offices globally. So we are here working with 5,000 roughly employees associates at Garmin and it's nice to have everyone here and accessible. But yes, Marcom Creative is about a hundred of us. There are about 25 in production specifically. So we work somewhat independently and obviously work with many other departments throughout Garmin, but we are the creative team.

Cole Heilborn (10:02):

Tell me how a project comes to you. Can you describe, do you get briefs, do you develop briefs? Where do those briefs come from? If you had to walk us through the journey from the perspective of the brief, where do you sit and how do you work with that?

 Kyle Pusateri (10:16):

Yeah, so the brief starts just like at any traditional agency model, so that's beneficial to have everyone nearby and to be able to collaborate. So the brief starts with input from the marketing team about whatever the product or service that Garmin's providing, and then we distill it down to the main points, just like any creative brief to include a lot of the important and relevant information that the team knows to concept taking that information team, we all are briefed and what I like to do, Cole, honestly, is to ask a lot of difficult questions at the briefing. As soon as we're briefed, I like to start thinking about what the shoot will look like. I give the creatives their space because that's needed and they need time to process and to really think freely about what the task may be or the project at hand.

(11:08):

But also I like to come up to the eighth floor on occasion and usually once a day with coffee and stop by and see how things are doing and how they're progressing on concepts without, again, infringing on maybe where they are in the process. But to politely check in. We do enlist external production partners to help us execute the creative on the ground and also many projects can range in complexity and budget and timing. So we have a great in-house team as well in-house shooters that can help us do things quickly or for ways that maybe we have limited resources to make sure that the quality of work maintains a certain level. So working both hand in hand dependent on a variety of factors, budget, timing, the creative ask, really determining with the creative team what's the best avenue to proceed and really what's going to make their work look its best. That's again, my goal and why I get up in the morning. It's how can I do in whatever capacity to help make their work look the best that it can. So that's up until engaging with a production partner. I'm happy to go further or if you want to ask questions about that portion, we can do that too.

Cole Heilborn (12:32):

Yeah, so what's your relationship to the creative as it's being developed, the creative team is developing it and then while it's being developed, are you simultaneously thinking through, okay, how do we actually pull this off?

 Kyle Pusateri (12:43):

Yes, and I love that our creative team is so well balanced and they are always never missing meetings. They're always coming to the idea with thinking of how we can do things differently. What our team does really well is set up a pre-production book basically from the beginning. So they build out their concepts and what I love that they do too and developing their concepts and once we've identified one that we're moving forward with is develop sketches for the shot list so that in sketching, I can't underscore enough how important sketches are for creative development, both working internally and externally reference images. We love them for what they are, but oftentimes people get hung up on certain aspects of a reference image that could be completely irrelevant to how we end up actually executing that concept. Using those pencil sketches, I start to imagine how the production will go and flow and seeing all their desires and mandatories that may be needed for each concept and really envisioning, okay, what's the groundwork I can start laying now to make sure that we execute that shot the way that they want it? There are many experts at Garmin who have a variety of disciplines to help us guide the creative. So it's going down and doing a fly by the marketing manager's office or finding the engineer who is the product leader on that particular feature and really understanding maybe what it is or how it's changed since we've been briefed to help make sure that we put it in its best light when we are capturing it on production. Having those conversations with the team, it feels like a good tight knit in-house creative team.

Cole Heilborn (14:35):

So yeah, I want to kind of press into this a little bit and I think what you, so you're alluding to the idea, not alluding to it, you're saying it actually is like creative is done in-house, creative is done with the internal team and then you come alongside and you help them figure out how to turn that into reality. What's interesting is that seems, I dunno if it's unique, but that's one of those differences where some brands don't have creative in-house. Maybe they're working with an agency to help develop that creative. Sometimes it's even the production company that's developing the creative. Did you guys, did you arrive and having a creative team in-house to do creative out of necessity because you felt like the creative was getting missed when you would farm it out or was it just because it made more sense, it was more efficient or for all those reasons I guess?

 Kyle Pusateri (15:22):

Good question. It's a myriad of reasons. Garmin has been around for 35 years and to the best of my knowledge, we've always had an in-house marketing department creative team. It's the speed at which we work and it's products that scope changes. Things are always constantly evolving and innovating. So in order for us to be here and really be part of that heartbeat of the company is truly the most efficient and creative way to work because things just evolve too rapidly. So imagine in a traditional structure maybe where you would have an agency working with a client and then the agency would enlist a production company to execute the creative. Having that layer that are in traditional agency structure would be inefficient and there's so much that we know in terms of shorthand and how products have evolved and where technology is going. To be able to have those discussions quickly and be able to adapt is something that only I think only an in-house agency here at Garmin can do. So we take advantage of that.

Cole Heilborn (16:43):

So I probably know the answer to this question, but do you get pitched from outside, say filmmakers or people going on trips who are like, oh, Garmin would be a great sponsor. Let me send over this idea. How do you guys handle those? And it sounds like what you're saying is there's so much happening internally, maybe it's sometimes hard for external ideas to fit in. Is that fair to say?

 Kyle Pusateri (17:08):

The range of projects really extends from in-house to doing small productions, maybe on campus to larger scale, full-blown productions to support flagship product. So we love entertaining and I'm an inbox of zero kind of guy who anytime a pitch comes across my desk, you bet I'm reading it and I may not respond right away. I do welcome anyone who has ideas and think that they would be a good fit for Garmin to send those to me because it's actually nice to know that there are people who are thinking about our brand proactively. And to that end though, Cole, I will say that it is always helpful if the person who may be pitching whatever service or creative idea they have is to do your homework. That is the one question or one point, do your homework. That's the one point that I like to drive home because you'd be surprised with how many people haven't been to garmin.com to even see what our latest products that we've announced or have really no perspective on maybe who our target audiences are for our different business segments or haven't really checked out our brand style guide.

(18:24):

I just asked that instead of tossing something over the fence and saying, Hey, here's my latest project, let's work together. That always falls a little flat and I'll take a look, but at the same time, pitch yourself, tell me how this idea fits within our current ecosystem. Tell me what you saw on garmin.com or on YouTube or on social or that said, wow, that was really cool and here's some work I think that I've done that can compliment what you're building for that product. Or maybe this was a miss from that person's perspective and here I'm identifying a gap to say what you could have done is this and giving us a different perspective on how maybe they would've executed it. Just don't come in saying, here we go, or here you are, here's a link to my site. Let me know what you think and I'd love to work together.

(19:24):

That doesn't give me much substance. So those folks who are developing bigger brand ideas, so back to your question, those people who are developing bigger brand ideas just know that we do a whole, our projects run the gamut. So what that meaning by that is that we have small and large scale productions, but don't expect that you send me a 45 page treatment on your brand film that I'm going to say, yep, greats do it, let, let's take it on because that's not a reality in most senses because if you started talking to me about it in six months prior and we had several conversations and worked to establish some credibility and buy-in and build some rapport perhaps, then we have an opportunity to position it and that's simply positioning it to the stakeholders to say, Hey, is this something we could potentially pursue? Otherwise we're focused honestly Cole on what projects we have for our calendar for the year, as well as producing more content that needs to keep the low hum for brand equity and for anything else that we need to do to keep our customers engaged.

Cole Heilborn (20:43):

How many shoots is your team doing in a year? Do you know

 Kyle Pusateri (20:47):

 We have five business segments. So we have our automotive, OEM, our aviation, marine fitness and rec outdoor. So at Garmin we have our portfolio of product offering is so broad that it gets me excited because at the core GPS technology is the crux of our business and understanding technology about how we engineer products on the inside for that life on the outside. So I probably have at any one point in time, four to five different productions that are on my plate. You'll never find me without crafty or some sort of light stand or any sort of production kit in my vehicle at all times because you're kind of always ready to do whatever it takes.

Cole Heilborn (21:34):

I feel like not every time but many times after shoots I find myself coming down with a cold. Does that happen to you or are you just on back to back shoots that your body never actually has a chance to get sick?

 Kyle Pusateri (21:46):

That's a great question. So here it is, HRV plummets after production and heart rate variability is one of our features on our wearables. So there are a handful of features that we talk about while we're on production. So HRV being one of them, I always like to ask the team, okay, hey team, what's our HRV looking at? Are we all in the green? Oh, you're dipping into the orange? Okay, well we got to know that maybe we should call it an early night. I love it At the end of the day when we can all compare stress levels and so we look at back at our data for the day and say, oh, okay, well around 2:00 PM right after lunch, we were all it spiked right around that time. I wonder what happened, what were we doing at the, oh, that's okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's why

Cole Heilborn (22:29):

I love the fact that you guys are checking watches throughout your shoot and then you're like, oh, maybe we should push this call time back by an hour. Everyone's feeling drained

 Kyle Pusateri (22:37):

But it's backed by data, right?

Cole Heilborn (22:39):

Yeah, no, that's awesome.

 Kyle Pusateri (22:40):

It's quantitatively supported that maybe we should reevaluate and I mean I'm saying this halfway in jest, but at the same time it is a nice way to temp check across the board, right?

Cole Heilborn (22:54):

Yeah. Other than just by a gut feel, which isn't always accurate. Yeah, I've always wondered this, what's the relationship you see between marketing and production? I see them as very similar, but some people I think, I guess I'm going on a limb here, some people might not see them as very similar and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this idea.

 Kyle Pusateri (23:15):

Sure. So first of all, our marketing department, they are so intelligent and savvy and work as that link between our product managers and the engineering teams and they do a fantastic job, but as it relates to production, so more to the core of your question, I love having a marketing manager on set. Honestly, it makes things really smooth and it's a quick gut check to be able to say, Hey, how are we feeling? Are we feeling like this is an accurate way, especially with some of the more complex or detail features that we may be highlighting.

(23:54):

I was raised under the five Ps, prior preparation prevents poor performance. So what I take that to heart in the sense of making sure that I'm a bulldog dude, I will work with the producer on the other side or the photographer or a combination of the two and want to ask, build a bulletproof schedule, tell me what that looks like pre-pro harder. I love that idea. Maybe it's crafting a really concise, yet informative email. I feel really good about writing good emails, Cole, I take some pride in that or building a really tight schedule or something that maybe a couple options. Maggie, our EP and I like to say hashtag CLO creatives love options. So be able to know that we can say, okay, here's maybe one way that we could approach it, but what's another way and then what's another way? And having that fly by conversation with the creatives at their desk to say like, all right, hey, I've been thinking about this a few different ways we could go this direction.

(24:56):

Maybe this person would be good for this project or we could go this way and we could do it with this person. And having a balanced open discussion about it instead of feeling like, okay, well we're going to go with the same person we did for the last one and we know that looked great and everybody was happy. It's like, yeah, it feels like we're selling ourselves a little short. Why not try to push the creative, push each other in a good way, in a healthy way instead of just feeling satisfied with where we are currently and being complacent or just and making compromises.

Cole Heilborn (25:31):

Yeah, no, that feeling of, I mean it can never be perfect, so at some point it has to be done, but how do you push beyond that complacency? Yeah, that's a great question and I feel like the question you always have to ask yourself as you're working on something, you talk about the different levels of projects that you're producing, so you've got big campaign projects and you've got smaller shoots that could be flat lays or just social content or whatever. What's the balance between big shoots and small shoots if you had to simplify it into those two buckets?

 Kyle Pusateri (26:02):

Honestly, it's being on your toes and taking any projects that may come across your desk and doing it with the same enthusiasm as you may approach something that you're really passionate about. I'm sure you're like this as well. You're a responsive person and really keep an eye on top of email and you've got many projects in the hopper at one time and seemingly you do a great job. I think of not only bouncing port side but then also back country marketing podcast. I think there's a lot of irons in the fire at one time. It's keeping composure, realizing that you've got a good support system at the company that will certainly jump in or be able to help you at any point if you get into a spot where it may get a little tight. But then also feeling like you want to keep everybody safe, like the creative team, making sure that they know that okay, there may be multiple, I may be producing several jobs with different creatives who may have no idea that I'm doing things on other, I want to make them feel like I'm their only producer and that I'm working on this just as in depth as they are and have that same passion and care to execute and to produce it really the best way that we can together.

Cole Heilborn (27:30):

Let's pivot a little bit. So one, I feel like I've learned a lot just listening to you kind of share what is it like to be inside Garmin producing work that's really fascinating and I feel like it's fascinating on many levels because maybe I think that's what's so interesting is everyone comes to production in a different place. Just yesterday I was talking with the brands in the ski and snow sports world and they're like, yeah, we have the two freelancers that we hire every year to go out and do some shoots and that's all we can pull off. And they figure out how to make it work. And I feel like maybe the common denominator, whether you're working at Garmin where there's hundreds of shoots happening or you're working in a small brand, a startup brand that's just kind of piecing together shoots as you can. It's all kind of that DIY, we'll figure it out spirit that seems to drive a lot of people in the production world. Do you agree?

 Kyle Pusateri (28:31):

Of course. I mean we have to be resourceful and realize that there are and surround yourselves with good people who also care and want to see the project succeed. Fortunately here at Garmin, like I've been saying, everybody's all in all the time and you feel that and it's infectious, it's refreshing because then you feel good about giving it your all each day, but getting creative about solutions, and that's one thing I made a note of this, can we eradicate problem solving? Can we spin it into a positive and do like solution finding or something Problem solvers, I agree that that is who we are and I think at the core we do that. But

Cole Heilborn (29:20):

Don't you like about that?

 Kyle Pusateri (29:21):

Well, problem just sounds so it's got a negative connotation to me immediately out the gate and it's like, well, yes, we are professional problem solvers, sure, but we also are being proactive about solutions. I think that we're anticipating the problems before they become one.

Cole Heilborn (29:36):

What about route finders?

 Kyle Pusateri (29:37):

That's even more applicable I think especially for us it on just where you're from because our UK team would say, is it route or route? But absolutely, I think that route finding to me feels more forward looking and proactive in the sense that you are okay, you may not anticipate or you may not experience any issues or a problem, but because you've thought about it or anticipated any potential pitfalls, you feel prepared to address them in the moment. And I'm not naive to think that there are problems we will encounter that we haven't prepared for. And so I'm not saying that we can prepare for everything, but having the idea that, okay, it's not going to be perfect, but how do we know maybe where are there some points throughout the production process and while you're putting together the schedule that could say, okay, look, that feels tight.

(30:33):

Maybe we should allow ourselves a little bit more time or making adjustments on the fly, feeling confident with the team and in a good flow state that you can actually say, okay, team, we're getting what we need. Maybe we're a little bit behind, but we know we're going to make it up. Those constant conversations, the check-ins, Cole, I know you know this, but can we step away and have a sidebar for five minutes? I mean the value of those onset, whether it's with the director or the photographer or if it's just the Garmin team, having those opportunities to break away and just ensure alignment is so important and valuable throughout the day just to make sure that you all are on the same page and doing it in a calm and respectful manner because we all know that they're the talent, the crew, they're looking at us, right? We need to be the captain of the ship and to be able to say, look, we've got this together. Inevitably will be things that we'll encounter that we weren't prepared to address. But you know what? We're smart and we're prepared. We are at this point. Let's figure this out and pivot and move on.

Cole Heilborn (31:44):

Yeah, I think I learned that lesson. There's one shoot that I did that or I learned that lesson the hard way. We were on location in another state shooting, the light was disappearing. We were shooting some product and I was stressed. I was directing and I was like, are lights disappearing? It took us longer to get to the location than we thought it would.

 Kyle Pusateri (32:07):

So what you experienced in the way you felt Cole is universal. We've all been there at one point where we can feel we're stressed. There's a lot going on. So many things racing through our brains. We've got people looking at us wondering what we need to do next. So that feeling I've been there. I think we all have. And so it's something that I've learned also to make sure that you maintain that composure and to really keep that poker face because the last thing you want to do is throw the creatives off their mission.

Cole Heilborn (32:42):

I mean, your job is unique in that you're reviewing locations, you're reviewing people and characters that you're working with. As you mentioned earlier, even use the example of a bike, which bike best is the best platform to put our unit on for this shoot? Those are all the really small details that people don't think about when they watch something, but they're things that we think about in production because we know, oh, if we cast this person, then this person will represent or speak to this group of the population or this demographic of our audience. Or if we use this bike subconsciously, this bike means this to this group of cyclists. Tell me more about how much time do you spend thinking about those nitty gritty details and giving yourselves options to consider like, oh, what if we use this bike versus this bike or this trail shoe versus this trail shoe?

 Kyle Pusateri (33:34):

Totally. And I do spend a lot of time thinking about those details because they're important. Those are the things that people who know will be looking for. So if we've got a TT bike on a gravel scene, people are going to know that we don't know what we're talking about. So you lose credibility right out of the gate. So those details matter. And I guess the way that I think what you're asking is then what I'm looking for maybe when seeing those, so I know BTS is something that we were talking about in our emails leading up to this, and you've posted a few times even on LinkedIn, but CN and read your blog post about it, also storyboarding and the fake rain example. I just thought those are the types of examples that I'd much rather see. Yes, send me a link to your site and show the final version of whatever it may be, the video or the final image, but tell me how you got there, articulate the route that you took to achieve that shot.

(34:39):

Tell me about the problems, the hiccups that you encountered along the way that is in totality what we will see and help us evaluate if you are the right type of production partner for Garmin, because we're small, nimble in-house teams. I'm bringing an art director, a writer and myself on some of these off the grid types of shoots where we need a production partner that's going to get gritty and be brave and help guide us out into the wilderness to make some really great content. And I want to know, and I know the team does too, about the coolest rig you just built or what kind of lenses you're planning to execute this type of shot to get the effect we're seeking. Or you've got some talent who isn't through an agency, but you met them at your local run club and think that they would be incredible because of what as a shooter.

(35:38):

Those are the types of things that I think, or an epic location. It's something that, or the example we gave about foliage in your area. And so finding those are the intangibles that help give us a broader perspective on how you would approach production. It's not simply like, yes, we can execute the creative exactly the way you have it boarded and we'll say yes to everything you put in front of us or every question you ask, it's got to be collaborative, but show me how you made that cool stuff. Because I think we like seeing that because the way that it's made is something that gives us greater confidence in that we're finding the right partner because they know how to do whatever it takes to get the shot.

Cole Heilborn (36:25):

Okay, this is interesting because okay, if you had to speak to creatives who are listening, and I hear this from you, and I'm like, okay, that's fascinating. Kyle is looking for, if I'm looking to work with Kyle, Kyle's looking to see how the sausage is made. He wants to see the rigs, he wants to see the lens choices, he wants to see all of the details that go into executing on a shoot. Some clients though, who are in a very different spot than you, they don't care about any of that stuff. And so I'm curious if you could speak to maybe the differences between what you look for versus what maybe a smaller team would look for in someone to work with because those are two very different, very two very different approaches, if that makes sense.

 Kyle Pusateri (37:12):

Of course. And certainly I think the size of the team, the resources that a company or a brand or an agency creatives may have at the ready varies. So for us, it's important to make sure that we can have a thorough understanding of your process and your team and your perspective. It's not just solely about how you're able to make pretty pictures or roll video in an epic location. It's seeing that you're giving the project additional thought beyond the ask. And I think that is at the core of what I'm saying when I mean that, I don't think in all cases we want to know all the lenses that you're using or our creatives are so multi-talented. I've got writers who shoot, I've got art directors who can edit. I've got editors who can write. And so I know that the reason I ask these questions upfront is so I know that those will be the types of questions the creatives will ask me.

(38:26):

So to be able to feel armed that, yeah, I had a great conversation with Cole. Here's a perfect case study of a project that he did recently, and look at this BTS blog post he did, and he goes into detail about how they made fake rain and did you know, you know that our concept calls for a rainy scene, and so he's got the credibility because he's done it before and worked with a great team to make it happen instead of just throwing money at a solution. I think that in some instances feels like the easy answer is, okay, well we need fake rain, so we got to call in a specialist and we got to fly somebody in and we got to get all this expensive equipment and blah, blah, blah. That to me isn't a solve not, I don't want you to come to me and say just because our ask may be shifted or we have something that when you bid the project you weren't accounting for, it's instead of saying, well, that's an overage.

(39:23):

Okay, no, let's back up a little bit and talk about how maybe we can find a solution together without compromising the creative and also not being unfair to the production partner on the project. It's a compromise and working together and being collaborative. But I would say for smaller teams, I think it's doing your due diligence and asking the production partner to be substantive in their examples that they're providing, to give you some examples of things that they've done that are similar or in a like-minded vein of what the project and is about. And so that way it gives you that greater confidence as you're going through pre-production to say, okay, they've encountered something similar. Or maybe it's not apples to apples. It could be a different production problem that you've solved, but at least it shows that you have the fortitude and the bravery to recover and to make really great work.

Cole Heilborn (40:31):

Okay, can we zoom out a little bit? Sure. We've been in the weeds. We're both wearing hats. Let's take off our hats and put on our CMO hats. We could just, I want to kind of pick your brain on the world of media from the 30,000 foot level and I guess as it pertains to the outdoor and the fitness world, where do you feel like this world of media is going? Do you feel like it has a direction that you're seeing and you're sensing? What do you think?

 Kyle Pusateri (40:58):

So I want to harken back to your conversation with Mark Bach from Gore-Tex feel like he, and you mentioned this in your latest fireside chat, also think he does a good job of articulating the corporate needs, the audience needs, and then the media strategy and how those three concentric circles overlap to focus on storytelling and that sort of being that sweet spot. There are a few other factors that I think contribute to help make storytelling feel as strong as it can be and an important vehicle for brands to establish equity with their audiences and with their customers. I think where it's going and what we need to be doing is that first six seconds thinking about short form, and we all love to talk about long form and long form is amazing, and in terms of where we're going and what we're seeing is that first six seconds is just imperative.

(41:56):

And when I say that, I mean most notably for social. And I think another thing Mark mentioned on his chat with you as the atomization of content and how it's not only focusing on how this is going to live on social, but then what is the landing page going to look like? What are banners that are corresponding with it? What are the p os displays? It's really having that 360 view of the idea. But I think that as we put a focus on video, and its tough to keep up with algorithms and the way that social is evolving, but capturing that customer, that viewer within the first six seconds seems imperative for you to have them stay engaged. And so really thinking about, I think the creative teams do a phenomenal job of focusing on what's the hook, what's a way to keep them engaged and excited and then to continue watching because just the attention spans, as we all know, are just decreasing as time goes on. So as we continue to get, just to get flooded with marketing messages each and every day, so how do we hook them? And then for a longer term play, how do we keep the corporate objectives, the corporate needs, the audience needs those insights and also media strategy. How do we keep all of those in mind and then find that sweet spot for content?

Cole Heilborn (43:31):

I love that you bring up the first six seconds. So this is a working theory that I have, and I want to hear your thoughts. I feel like the first six seconds are the hook, otherwise essentially the question that that every person has when they watch something is why should I care? And the hook, I feel like ideally should answer that question. And if you can answer that question, then people are in it, right? They're like, they're interested in what you have to show, but if you can't answer that question, why should I care? Or why does this matter? I mean, I find myself clicking out of stuff or moving on because why should I care? There's going to be another brand that's going to throw something in my face in the next five minutes. So

 Kyle Pusateri (44:14):

You're right. And that I think is being an honest customer, someone who you're really thinking about it probably more deeply than the average person because they're just swiping, scrolling onto the next, that is something to consider as you are pitching ideas. Why would this fit so uniquely for that brand? I guess if you're savvy enough, I think of a marketer and I'd like to give your audience that credibility and that credit, because they're invested, they care about the topics you're covering, the people you're interviewing, and so thinking back, just not presenting or pitching an idea that feels like you're shopping it around, that you've just taken something off the shelf and you're saying, oh, well we'll try with Garmin or we'll try with another brand. And just because it feels like it may be something that they'll buy into, I mean, that's like fishing without bait to me. You're not really making it feel like it's something that would be unique for us and totally ownable together, I guess.

Cole Heilborn (45:23):

I love that. That's even a great, even if you're working internally developing concepts or trying to find stories to tell internally, that's a great question to ask. How does this story or this idea, what's unique about it? Why is it Garmin and why is it not any other tech brand? What's unique about this that's truly us? I like that. That's a good question. I'm going to write that down and use that.

 Kyle Pusateri (45:49):

Absolutely, and maybe test it out for a couple different brands and ideas. You may have to say, okay, why would Patagonia work or why would Arc Alteryx be a good brand? Or really thinking more deeply about your idea and strategically because ultimately that person that you're sending it to likely isn't the end recipient. That's one thing that I like to remind them is we have many stakeholders who are invested in this aspect of the business, this business segment. Let's make sure that the idea is fully baked, and that is something that we can confidently say is ownable for Garmin or for that brand, because otherwise it's just, it's a tough sell

Cole Heilborn (46:33):

And

 Kyle Pusateri (46:33):

It makes it really hard for me to walk into a meeting and try to get the attention of a stakeholder who has five minutes. I mean, think of it like you've got six floors in an elevator ride with the CMO, what do you say? Or what's the pitch? And I know that sounds cliche, the elevator pitch, but at the same time, often that's the amount of time I have with decision makers here.

Cole Heilborn (46:59):

And

 Kyle Pusateri (47:00):

So I love great treatments, don't get me wrong. And the opportunity to really articulate an idea, please don't stop sending them because they work. It's just work with me to refine it, to make it something that we can quickly digest and say, okay, yeah, tell me more.

Cole Heilborn (47:19):

This idea of asking why Garmin or why fill in the blank brand when it comes to producing content. If you're going to put your stamp of and put this out into the world, it needs to look, feel and breed Garmin, and ideally whatever is Garmin is different than every other brand out there. It's very you. So I see this, and I think we've talked about this on the show, is a lot of the content and stories that get produced in the outdoor industry look and feel very similar amongst each other. And there are similar stories. Maybe you swap out the logo at the beginning or the end of the spot and you're like, oh, is that this brand or this brand? It's hard to tell. Some brands do. I am generalizing some brands do this really well. It feels very them, but this homogenization of stories, I wonder if could be solved if we all asked ourselves more of the question of why is this story or this concept truly us? What makes a concept truly us versus someone else?

 Kyle Pusateri (48:20):

Absolutely. And that makes it so much more marketable and proves you've done your homework, you've thought deeply about it, you've thought strategically, and you're coming into the pitch feeling like you're doing more than just delivering creative. You're delivering something that could be a way for the brand to think differently about the way they approach business. I mean, who knows? The sky is really the limit in that sense because you're saying that you've given it some deep thought and that you truly believe that this approach or execution or whatever it may be, is the right fit for the brand. I guess I give a lot more credit and respect to those people who take the time and feel intentional about their ideas instead of just saying, oh, well, I've found their email and I'll shoot it over and see what comes back. I mean, that's so obvious with a shotgun approach when you just feel like you're one of 50 different producers that are probably getting the same pitch deck.

Cole Heilborn (49:27):

As we wrap up, I want to look towards the future and I want to understand what are you seeing, I guess, when it comes to two pieces of technology? I have to ask about ai. What do you think about AI and production? Do you feel like it's going to steamroll everyone who uses a camera? And my second follow up question to that is what about, are you familiar with the stagecraft technology, the video walls that Hollywood is using to film stuff on? Do you feel like where does that fit into this? Is that going to take over some of these shoots that are happening in the outdoor or fitness, I guess any of your categories that you're with?

 Kyle Pusateri (50:06):

Yes, in the future is inevitable and they're coming to take our jobs, the robots. I think at the end of the day, we're ultimately going to always want authenticity in all of our materials. So per Garmin, it's important to show people doing the activities they love in epic environments. I feel like that will be difficult to manufacture artificially in the future because at the crux, that's ultimately where we feel like our products are best represented. I won't speak too much creatively in terms of those concepts, but practically from a production standpoint, and given the fact that our company and our technology is rooted in GPS actually doing that authentically and going off the grid and taking real athletes who have proper form and to look the right part, but also are passionate about whatever activity it is that they may do that we're depicting, it's going to just be hard to replicate. I don't see artificial intelligence giving that personal touch to another individual on the other end to be able to make them feel like their credible or going to be taken care of, and that the idea will be executed in the best way possible. I'm not there with my confidence in what AI is able to do quite yet, but curious to hear your perspective.

Cole Heilborn (51:43):

Yeah, I mean, I'm with you when it comes to on location stuff, that stuff has to be real. It has to be raw. For the 1% of people who watch a spot and they're like, oh, I've been there before that, as you were talking about earlier, that creates authenticity.

(51:59):

And I don't know how you fake that. I also think, yeah, when it comes to storytelling, people stories like docu projects, you can't fake that. That has to be real and rooted in reality for it to be credible. And so I don't think that's going anywhere. It seems like the type of work that could be hit the most is, and I don't know that this is even really super relevant for the outdoor community, is like the work that's all fiction. It's the type of work that isn't rooted in a real place or a real person. Everything is fabricated and it's shot on a studio. That's the type of stuff that feels like it could be on the chopping block in the future where, oh, maybe I just enter some prompts and I can create my own world with crazy visual effects. And that seems like it's going to have a much, I dunno, maybe the day of reckoning is coming for that type of work, the outdoor community. I don't know some of that gets produced, but I feel like the outdoor community is pretty safe. I did an interview actually a

Cole Heilborn (53:10):

Few months ago

Cole Heilborn (53:11):

With Liz Eshi. She used to be in the outdoor industry. She's now at an AI company, and she had a really interesting prediction for brands, which I think impacts storytelling and media work. She was saying that in her perspective, what AI is going to do is essentially it's going to cut all of the BS out between brands and consumers. And so all it's going to be like if I wanted to find a watch, I could go, her theory is that we won't go to a search engine anymore. We'll just go to our own personal AI and I'll type in, I need to find a GPS watch that can do all these things to meet these needs that I have. And so then this AI goes out and scours the internet and pulls up all the options for me, and then I can look at all the options.

(53:56):

And she's like, if her conclusion was, if this AI is finding the product, evaluating it based on your activities, and then presenting three options other than price and design, what is your choice going to be based off of? And that last thing is it's brand. It's like that emotional connection that you build with that brand. And I've thought about that. Maybe that was almost a year ago that we had that interview, but I've thought about that ever since. That might be five years in the future, but it makes me think about the decisions that are made today to build that brand and how do we do that as filmmakers and as producers,

 Kyle Pusateri (54:35):

Our craft isn't going anywhere. I think there is an opportunity for us to continue to make great work that appeals to people's emotions and to their activities and their lifestyle throughout the course of time.

Cole Heilborn (54:50):

Yeah, absolutely. Kyle, want to thank you for taking the time to sit down and chat. I mean it, it's been super fascinating just kind of hearing you talk about your work and the work that your team does, and I got to give you a round of applause and I guess your whole team for the amount of work that you guys really do behind the scenes to produce the work that we all see on the other end. It's impressive, and I think maybe that's what I'm excited to. One of the reasons I'm excited to get this episode out into the world is to show all the work that goes into production. I mean, we work with creative teams, we work with the marketing teams, but in some way, production is its own beast and there can be so much to it. And I think you've really shed a really nice light onto what it means to be a creative in the production world, in the outdoor industry. So thank you.

 Kyle Pusateri (55:38):

Well, thank you, Cole. And this has been an honor, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity, and I really hope we have an opportunity to work together someday and get a chance to explore the world and make some of the best work of our lives, because that's what it's all about.

Cole Heilborn (55:50):

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Kyle, with that, have a great rest of your day. Keep us posted on where you're shooting next, and hopefully you get some sleep between now and then.

 Kyle Pusateri (56:00):

Yep. I'll check my sleep

Cole Heilborn (56:01):

Score.

 Kyle Pusateri (56:01):

Thank you very much.

Cole Heilborn (56:02):

All right, see you. Have a

 Kyle Pusateri (56:03):

Good one.

Cole Heilborn (56:04):

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share it with a friend or leave us a review on Apple.

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