Chris Burkard (00:00):

There used to be a very linear path to finding success and knowing that you nailed it. Now, there are so many channels and there's so many metrics. It's actually very convoluted and a little bit more complex, and I find that more often than not, people don't really know what they're looking for and people in the positions of creativity or marketing roles, it's more these days than just producing pretty images or a powerful video piece. Did it have the ROI did it, do this, did it do that? And it all starts to feel kind of homogenized. Just because something is getting views or likes or impressions does actually equate to sales, does it equate to value?

Cole Heilborn (00:40):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast. Today's guest needs little introduction. If you've spent any time in this industry, chances are you have come across Chris Burkard's work. He's a renowned photographer, adventurer athlete. When the opportunity came around to interview Chris for the show, it was an easy yes. This is part one of a two part episode we're doing with Chris. And the reason we want to do two parts is because we want to open it up to community questions. This first part was a really fun conversation and we talked specifically about creativity in the future of creative in this world of outdoor marketing. But the second episode, we want it to be driven by you guys. So if you have any questions for Chris, please submit them. Comment on the posts on social media. You can send emails to me, cole@portsidepro.com, and we'll do our best to answer 'em in a part two. Chris has been super willing to share his time and his expertise with us, and so I would love to source some amazing, really thought provoking questions from our community and be able to to chat about them on part two. Without further ado, enjoy this first episode, get a notepad and a pen ready, and write down any questions you might have. Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Chris Burkardand , the photographer, creative director, adventurer amidst only many other titles. Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris Burkard (02:03):

Thanks for having me, man. I'm stoked to be here, especially after kind of fall in love with the podcast and sort of binging a few amazing episodes. I feel honored to be a part of it.

Cole Heilborn (02:14):

I appreciate that this show wouldn't be anything without the folks that share their time and their insights. And so right back at you, you're helping bring together another episode we connected a couple of weeks ago, and we're trying to align on what could we talk about that might be a unique perspective. And if I had to sum up 2024, at least in my own perspective in one word, I might choose the word change because I feel like everything is changing. The role of creatives is changing in the outdoor industry, the needs that brands have this constantly changing. Channels are changing, audiences are changing. And amongst all that change is a lot of anxiety, but also opportunity. And I would love to hear your perspective on this topic of change.

Cole Heilborn (02:59):

You could speak to that incredibly well. So I guess my first question is, do you see change happening all around you right now?

Chris Burkard (03:07):

All around me all the time. And it's been an interesting path because not to date myself, but I've been doing this for a minute, and there are moments where I realize just how long I've been in the industry. And it's odd because there was for so many years, I was like, oh yeah, I'm the young gun. I'm the guy looking up at older people who were the creative directors or the art directors or whatever, the people that I was working with, the editors. And now I'm sort of looking down and I'm like, whoa, I'm older, or I'm at that age. And I think that what's most interesting to me, Cole, is there used to be a very linear path to finding success and knowing that you nailed it, knowing that you did the job that the brand or the magazine or whatever the title is that hired you wanted you to do.

(03:59):

And now, especially since social media, probably more so because now there are so many channels and there's so many metrics, it feels like the path is much less linear, it's much less straightforward. It's actually very convoluted and a little bit more complex. And I find that more often than not all due respect to people who hold these roles, but people don't really know what they're looking for and people in the positions of creativity or marketing roles, it becomes more challenging than ever as somebody who's the hired help, I guess you could say, to define really if you hit the mark, if you did a good job, it's more these days than just producing pretty images or a powerful video piece. Did it have the ROI did it, do this, did it do that? And to echo the words that some of the other really talented folks who you've interviewed have said, it all starts to feel kind of homo, homogenized, homogenous, I guess you could say. And it becomes a little bit complicated because just because something is getting views or likes or impressions does actually equate to sales. Does it equate to value? I don't know. And so yeah, to answer your question in a long-winded way, I agree there is a lot of change and it kind of keeps changing.

Cole Heilborn (05:34):

So you said times were simpler back in the day, so to speak, what you shot for a magazine, you got a cover, and that led to another cover and that led to more brand deals.

Chris Burkard (05:44):

And I think more when you would oftentimes maybe 15, 16 years ago going out and shooting a commercial project, it was like, here's the brief. The brief is very clear, very simple, and I feel like I was working a lot of times with people who really knew what they wanted and could kind of set up some really safe guardrails for you, for us to play in. If you're the creative, the goal is to push the limits but not push it too far. And now I feel like it's a little different. You're being put into a role more so if you are a hired photographer, videographer, production, studio, whatever you're operating sometimes as a miniature creative agency a little bit. And that can be really fun. And trust me, I don't want to take anything away from that, but for those people coming up, it becomes a little bit complicated because you're having to do quite a bit and maybe some of that stuff is a bit out of your scope. And I think that brands are really leaning into creatives in that way quite a bit.

Cole Heilborn (06:53):

So you mentioned, or you're alluding to the fact that maybe folks who work at brands maybe don't have as clear of directions as maybe they once did. And I'm curious if you could kind of explain that. What do you see and perhaps why is that?

Chris Burkard (07:05):

Yeah, so I think I always sort of feel the conversation the same way, whether it's, I guess you could say I sort of operate in a few different worlds. I operate a bit in the photography production space with my studio. I also operate sort of in the influencer space a little bit. I also operate as an athlete in some capacity. So I often fill these different needs for brands and have sort of spread my tentacles out throughout. But I would say I start every conversation the same way. It doesn't really matter if I'm being hired to go shoot up Corona broadcast spot as a director or being asked to ride a bike as an athlete, how do we define success in this relationship? What would that look like at the end of the road? When all is said and done and the checks are sent and everything, what's going to make you feel good about this partnership?

(07:57):

And that is usually where I kind of get a long pause and I would say one time out of 10 I get an answer. Usually it's a bit more of like, okay, let's follow up. I'll let you chew on that. And that's really tricky because I feel like for me, it's more clear what I want, but I'm not the person who's paying the bills. And so I find that gives me a lot of pause that gives me a lot of maybe concern sometimes because if your people are in the position where they're spending the money, hiring the talent, hiring the whatever, and they don't really know what at the end of the day will successful look like. I mean, of course we can't always control these things, but I think that that gives me a little bit more concern as were before it was more linear.

(08:49):

Now, I want to just caveat that by saying that it's tricky because say you are in a production situation where you're the hired production company and you are making assets that then the brand can use on somebody else's channel. Does that make sense? If I'm being hired, CRISPR Studio or your production company is being hired to kind of make a video that then somebody on their team can promote on their social channels, or maybe there's a group of influential people who are going to spread that out. See, what's tricky is that you're not creating something for the brand's channels, you're creating something for somebody else's channels. And then whose fault is it? If it doesn't perform well, is it the brands? Is it yours? Is it theirs? Do you know what I'm saying?

Cole Heilborn (09:39):

Absolutely.

Chris Burkard (09:40):

I mean exactly, because you've been there and I've been there too. And what ends up happening is at the end of the day, there's this happening. There's the point, the finger, and I totally forget her name. I think she was with Cotopaxi. She

Cole Heilborn (09:53):

Kristen,

Chris Burkard (09:53):

Yeah, she had just some great, I like great, I took a bunch of notes and she had some thoughts that were really interesting kind of around a bit about this risk taking mentality and the need to take risks, but also the need for somebody to step up and be excited around raising their hand and saying, Hey, I'm willing to put myself on the line for this. And I think what ends up happening is, and to kind of give the creatives at the brand side some credit is that they don't have as long of a leash either. And so you have people who are less willing to go out on a limb, try the crazy thing, do the new thing, and people that want to just do more of the same. And so she was kind of speaking about this homogenization of what we're seeing. And so I feel like there's a bit of this cycle happening where because of Covid and because of the fact that, well, not because of Covid, but because of the effects that had on the world and the economy, people don't want to lose their jobs and people want to play it safe.

(11:04):

And I think I noticed this a lot as another example, you have the creative agency that they land the dream client, they land the Toyota or the Apple or whatever, and I'm sure that they got the client by pitching them a rad crazy idea that was full of just ingenuity and inspiration. And then maybe they release that one and they became the agency of record or the agency that they would hire. And the work got more and more stale over time. And this is a tale as old as time because they don't want to take those risks to then lose the client. And I think that on the clients and people are just taking less big swings because they don't want to miss, so there's less home runs.

Cole Heilborn (11:50):

I don't want to make this question sound like I don't appreciate the importance of data backed creativity because that's super important, but has the reliance on data devalued our appetite for risk?

Chris Burkard (12:04):

Yeah, that's a tough one. And I think what you're kind of getting at is ROI like return on investment backed by metrics or backed by analytics. And for maybe anybody who's listening to this that doesn't know is analytics are the backend data that you can find on any website or anything that aggregates information. And I would say social media is one of those places where data is super important. Data can help inform the client a lot of information. I find myself on both sides of that where I'm sort of the one maybe leveraging my own channels for that, but I'm also the one creating work for a brand for their channels or creating work for a brand for somebody else's channels. Now I think it's super important, but I would absolutely not say that it's the only metric. And it's really tough to me where I pour a lot of energy and effort into this idea of all of that social, digital, blah, blah, blah, all that's important.

(13:09):

But at the end of the day, if you can get 300 people into one of your brick and mortar stores to have an event where those people had a physical experience, they're going to be consumers for life, they're going to be people that preach them, the good word, they're your followers. And to me, that should be the end goal. And I feel like there's so much emphasis nowadays placed upon just how much can we fill the garbage can, the never ending garbage can of social media. The appetite is endless. It's like it doesn't matter what you did yesterday, it's all about what you're doing tomorrow. And so I guess when I think about personal projects or the projects that have been really meaningful for me, they usually look like this. There's kind of a three-pronged approach. There is the media, there is the social media approach where you're telling a story in real time.

(14:03):

It's really cool, you're reaching millions of people or hundreds of thousands or whatever, and that's great, but those people, maybe they're not actually purchasing or consuming or whatever the goal is. Maybe they're not taking the product, but they are tuning in. And then you have that second tier, which is like maybe you create a film or a zine or editorial in a magazine and less people see it, but it's a bit more intimate and those people are more invested. So it's a little bit more investment, a little bit more investment. And then the people that show up at your store, the 200 people, the 300 people who see a film screening or they see, I don't know, maybe there's a new athlete that you're sponsoring or a new spokesperson who's giving a little presentation or a slideshow. This is kind of like we're talking about the outdoor sports industry. So I feel like I'm kind of trying to circle around these types of activations. Those people are so valuable to you, and those are the people that I would personally, if I was a marketing director, I would be there at the event looking at every person saying, does this deck that we've circulated around our company that reflects our core audience, do they look like these people that showed up?

(15:21):

And sometimes they don't. And I think that that to me is a big red flag. And if they do, that's a big sign of success. Do you know what I'm saying? It's kind of like the companies and brands spend so much time ideating and trying to understand who their audience is, who is our demographic. I think that one of the biggest values that I have had in my life has been trying to do film screenings and do speaking events and just trying to put myself in public settings for companies or for myself. I'm sharing my own film or whatever and being able to actually meet people and introduce myself people and connect to people that I know engage with me. And so I guess what I'm getting at is that the importance for a brand to do that is tenfold so much more. And it informs you as to who is your audience in real time, not based on analytics, right?

(16:18):

Because this is the issue I have with data, and I know that I'm kind of taking the long path around to answer your question, but the problem with data is that you can look at Instagram every day and be like, oh, we've got 46% female and 27% male, and these are their age groups and this and that, but does that mean that those people are consumers? It doesn't mean that you actually have to people, which is kind of a problem sometimes in this industry where I feel like we're getting more and more separate from who actually engages with us. And you need to be able to interpolate that data in real time. And I get really excited about that information. I get really excited, and I love when I meet somebody where I'm like, wow, I never would've thought that that was a consumer of this brand or my brand, but there they are. They're walking out the door with something of mine that I'm selling or a company's a brand's jacket or book or shell or whatever. So that information to me needs to be taken with a grain of salt, I guess.

Cole Heilborn (17:27):

How important is the audience when it comes to developing creative? I guess in my perspective it's paramount, but how have you seen the importance of audience alignment play out in the real world?

Chris Burkard (17:41):

How important is the audience to the brand's kind of ethos or more just the relationship they have with them? Is that,

Cole Heilborn (17:49):

Well, as a brand, if you're going to make something, you want that thing to resonate with the right people. And finding that frequency I think can be tough sometimes. That resonant frequency,

Chris Burkard (18:00):

You're using some really loving words to describe this, but I would say it's absolutely crucial. And honestly, hopefully there isn't any jadedness coming across here, but I definitely see more brands than not who the products that they're making are not informed by their users, right? By the people that are buying the product. It's informed by somebody sitting behind a desk being like, oh, well, I'm going to ideate this beautiful piece that's my vision and I'm going to put it out to the world. And then when people don't buy it or accept it, they don't know how to because they're artists. And artists don't like that type of feedback because a lot of times the difference between a starving artist and a successful artist is usually validation of some kind. And so let me try to back this up here, but ultimately, Patagonia, I used to work for Patagonia.

(19:03):

I was a staff photographer for them. Early in my career I was on retainer and I worked under Jane Seaver. She was an incredible photo editor who was there for 28 years. And Patagonia really taught me the value of shooting commercial work. It was obviously to sell clothing, but it was done in an editorial way. And actually that is the work that I would say attributed to being able to shoot for brands like National Geographic and whatnot, because it helped me to understand the decisive moment and not forcing it and letting things play out. But the point is, I remember vividly, I had this conversation with them, and this was outside of the photography side of things, but they said, we hire some of the best designers in the world. And oftentimes you can tell a good designer from a great designer, if they come in and a great designer will say, this pair of shorts is perfect.

(19:56):

The best thing I can do is nothing. I'll change nothing. That is me leaving my mark. But the problem is, is that people that are so intent on leaving their mark, making their name, making their change, despite maybe despite the kind of reciprocity of needing this change being there, they change it or they adjust it or they fix something or they alter something or they throw out this crazy color, whatever it is. And I guess what I'm saying is I feel like the brands I really respect and appreciate are usually the ones that are sort of aggregating that information based upon their audience. And you can see it I think very clearly, the brands who are on social media responding to people who have witty, witty captions, who put time and energy like this is what's funny is I'm not necessarily an advocate for Red Bull at all, really cool brand.

(20:58):

I love what they do for photography personally, but their social media is on point. And what I mean by that is when you see their captions and when you see what they write and what they share and what they respond, it feels like a real person. That person has a personality. When a brand has a personality, we care about it. And this is 2024, the entry fee just to get into the industry is that you have to make a jacket that keeps you waterproof. So when a consumer goes to North Face, Patagonia, whatever, mountain Hardware, they're not looking for a waterproof shell. They're looking for a brand they identify with and the brands they identify with, it's about so much more than the tech. The tech is great, the tech is cool, it lasts for a moment, and then it vanishes because at the end of the day, they all make something that will keep you warm. They all make something that'll keep you dry. You latch onto these brands because you feel like they're speaking to you, and they do that through the content that they create and what they stand for. And I think that that is something that's hard to track through ROI. It's hard to track through analytics. It's hard. It's hard to speak to somebody's kind of core values when you're making six second TikTok videos or advertising pieces that are short and sweet and not really don't have any substance. I guess

Cole Heilborn (22:33):

Your observation about a good versus a great product designer, that's really interesting. Can that be applied to the marketing department?

Chris Burkard (22:40):

Huh? I mean, I'm kind of speaking directly about the marketing department as well. There was years ago I used to do a lot more brand consulting where I would come in and when a new CEO would come in and I would help shape a photo department and I would do some presentations, and I stole a lot of my information from brands that I had worked with, pieces that I really liked and good art directors that I'd worked with and great product designers and line managers, et cetera, et cetera. And the thing that I always appreciated was how, and you'll probably relate to this, but there are some brands where the marketing initiatives come from the product team. And I feel like that is a little bit backwards. The product team is designing. To me, it's really hard to explain this without my charts and my graphs, but ultimately the way I always saw it is that there's kind of like a triangle or a circle and it can go one way or it can go the other way.

(23:45):

And a lot of brands, what ends up happening is when the marketing department is not functioning correctly, then what happens is that the marketing initiatives come from product as opposed to, and we're talking about kind of a specific type of brand that maybe has athletes and ambassadors or whatever, which is most brands nowadays. Typically, the best way that I have seen it work where it's not dysfunctional is that stories aren't told for no reason at all. If you create a product that's just like, what's the purpose? What's the point? Then the marketing department is now, when the marketing initiative is informed by the product, they're trying to force a story as opposed to marketing department is in touch with the athlete team or the ambassador team or whatever that is. These athletes are now telling the team managers what they are doing throughout the year. These are my big projects, my dream projects. They're informing the marketing department that is then saying, this is great. And then they are in touch with the product team. And what's happening is the product team is kind of going back and forth with the marketing department and what's happening is that then the marketing department is choosing some of these expeditions, activations, projects, whatnot, that will then support this product launch. Does that make sense? I know I'm not explaining it super well.

Cole Heilborn (25:18):

So you've got marketing on one point of the triangle product on the other, and then athletes and ambassadors on the other.

Chris Burkard (25:23):

Yeah, so it's like product is here, ambassadors are here, they're working together. They should be because the whole point is that the best product is usually informed by the people using it. You hire brands should hire product testers, ambassadors, athletes, whatever to use it. That's what makes it good. So that product is informed. And then what happens is the new product, it goes up to the marketing team and then the ambassadors or the athletes, they send their pitches, their ideas up to the marketing team, and the marketing team connects the dots as opposed to it all coming from here, going here, and then they're trying to splay it out. And this is why for many years in North Face, they had such a good program because what they would do is they would have an athlete summit and athletes would come and they pitch their ideas, they would talk to this little trio of basically decision makers that sat on their expeditions council.

(26:21):

And I'm not sure if I'm giving away any trade secrets, but a lot of times that expeditions council would be like, okay, these are the expeditions or these are the projects we're going to say yes to or grant money to or whatever. And obviously that would be supported then by the product. So they would come back and they would say, this is what we're doing this year, which product are you making that could feed into these different trips? Which of these trips would be wise for us to launch this future light or this or that or whatever. And that is a much more functional method, I think, of informing the public in a cool way why something is made. Now, granted, there are other brands maybe, I'm not sure, but maybe Cotopaxi, where they don't really operate in that space with athletes and this and that.

(27:18):

So they have to kind of do it a different way. And I'm not saying this is the only way, but I am saying that I think that there's a really, I see that as being more functional. And when I've been able to work alongside marketing departments that operate that way, it's much more clear because when you're trying to kind of force a story, when I get a brief or you get a brief and it's like, Hey, here's this new product, we need to form a story around it, you're like, okay, alright, what's the use case? What are the properties of the product that make it interesting? Is it a jacket that's got this crazy breathability and lightweightness? Is it a camp pillow that for side sleepers? I don't know. So yeah, obviously I know that we're, I'm specifically talking about these kind of I think 15 to 20 core brands that operate in that way, but I know that there's a much broader use case in this industry.

Cole Heilborn (28:13):

So is that what leads to maybe some of the lack of clarity around briefs or direction for creatives? Sounds like it.

Chris Burkard (28:20):

Think so. I think it's actually a very linear, when you're like, oh, I'm going on a trip to document these people doing this thing and they're professionals doing their job. And in this position, I just have to kind of be there in the right moments at the right places. And the deliverables are telling this story. Now it becomes a bit more tricky when we don't really know. Maybe if they don't know where it's going to end up, that's tough because then you're

Cole Heilborn (28:51):

Talking like deliverables.

Chris Burkard (28:52):

Yeah, that's one issue I find a lot. We don't know where it's going to end up. I'm like, okay, well are we shooting this for YouTube? Are we shooting this for social media? Is it vertical? Is it horizontal? Is it, and that becomes its whole own complexity. And I think as you notice, probably too Cole, the deliverables have now doubled triple because you're having to do cuts in every variation. And I mean, not that the general public doesn't care about this, but what works for Instagram stories doesn't work necessarily for vertical Instagram because it's cropped and then one is four by five, one is 16 by nine, and then you've got your normal vertical format and then you've got YouTube. So deliverables become really big and they become pretty complicated very fast. And I tend to try to whittle those down to maybe what we feel like is possible.

(29:47):

But with that, I don't have a definitive answer as to why I feel like it's a complex time. But I think that part of it is kind of chasing trends, which is a part of it. And we all do that, trust me. I mean even myself a lot for sure. Brands, everything, chasing trends, trying to kind of catch up to the next trend, which is tough. That's a really tough position to be in. And then jumping around is really tough where you're like, oh, we tried this didn't work. Let's try this now. Let's do this. Now we're going to do a long form film now we're going to tell a story now going to, and I feel like from the consumer's perspective, the consumer's so smart these days. They see through that. They see through it when a brand is not authentic or they're trying to glob onto somebody's authenticity because they don't have it. And I think that there's nothing more painful than working on a project and feeling like you're making something good, but knowing it's not going to perform well because of the execution of how it will be put into the world. And just last comment is I feel like nine times out of 10, it's the delivery of it that really informs and the strategy around the delivery that really informs if it will be successful or not.

Cole Heilborn (31:11):

So we started this by talking about the changing role of creatives. Do you feel like that piece of it, strategy and distribution, is that responsibility being shifted to creatives regardless if they want it or not?

Chris Burkard (31:23):

Absolutely. I would say so. I mean, I think in good conscience you could keep your mouth shut and just be like, cool, let's do it. I'll take the job. But I don't know that there's anybody personally who wants to be hired simply because they have a camera and know how to use it. I think people want to be hired because they're creative, there's collaboration, it's exciting. You're the best at what you do, and we want you, Cole, because you bring this to the table. That's the validation and what you want to find or hear when you're being hired for a job. And so with that, I think that we feel the need to speak up maybe when we think that something might not work or might not hit the mark. There was a time in my life and career where I was probably a little more sheepish and would just be like, sure, whatever. And I would shoot the job and then it would flop for them or whatever, but I didn't feel responsible. Nowadays I feel more responsible. And I think the reason I feel more responsible is the reason everybody feels more responsible because you want to share it. I don't know how many, can I ask you? Have you done jobs that you've never shared because you're embarrassed?

Cole Heilborn (32:39):

The portfolio has been Yes. Well, meticulously crafted.

Chris Burkard (32:43):

Totally. And so me too, I have done work that I have shot that I wasn't particularly excited by. It might've paid well, but I kind of walked away and washed my hands of it. And I think that anybody who has a good conscience feels like they owe those brands maybe a bit of their 2 cents around if it's going to work or if it's not or whatever. And I also think that there is more room for that now because you start these conversations and then you realize that there's a lot of indecisiveness or there's a lack of definitive answers around what the goal is. And that leaves, what ends up happening is that there's a ton of ambiguity and there's a lot of room for error. And as I said before, I don't want to be beat onto a dead horse, but it's people not wanting to take the blame if something doesn't work out.

(33:39):

Everybody wants to take the blame if it's super successful and it was that crazy wild idea, but nobody wants to write in stone what the success looks like. And then if that doesn't work out, then somebody has to take the blame, which is a bummer. I'm not trying to stand on some moral high ground, but I think that why, to answer your question, the path of creatives is now more synonymous with creative direction and or kind of more agency type work too, is because we want to share it, we want to share it with our audience. We're proud of the work that we're doing. And until the last, what, 10 years, we've never had that opportunity. Now with social media, that is a part of it. Also, I would say that I'm put into a little bit of a tricky situation sometimes because I do know my audience really, really well.

(34:39):

And so when I have a brief that comes through and in the early days of social media briefs, I think it's different now, briefs would come through and it would kind of be cut and paste. We want you to write this, we want you to say this. And I'd be like, guys, never in a million years would I communicate this way or this is cringe, right? This is not me. This is not authentic. I think now all this emphasis is placed on authenticity. It's now a buzzword, sadly, but it's because they want it in your own voice. And so with that, if I'm doing a job that's sort of hybrid where I'm shooting something, but I'm also sharing something, that's the situation where I'm like, yeah, I'll shoot it for you, but if you want me to share it, I absolutely need to have some creative control. And so I think that that's part of the role that we're in nowadays a little bit. And I know that my situation is a little unique, so I don't want to say that this is the industry standard at all, but I do just want to clarify that a little bit.

Cole Heilborn (35:44):

What's the biggest opportunity you see for brands amidst all of this upheaval and change?

Chris Burkard (35:50):

I mean, I think the biggest opportunity is I think the opportunities are kind of endless really. I feel like through the noise to me, really exciting stuff rises to the top. There's always been a tried and true method of what's worked over the years. And I guess I feel like the brands that get me excited are the ones that are still putting emphasis into that physical interaction, that grassroots, let's get people to be in a place and experience something real. When I see a project personally, I saw on social media, I followed it and then it had a film premiere online or whatever, and then there was an activation or a zine. I'm like, dude, I'm in. That is cool because giving something to the consumer, they're providing something, a service or information or inspiration or creativity or a tangible item like a book or a zine or a guide. That's what gets me excited.

(37:00):

Patagonia's wear initiative, which was actually started by a friend of mine, was probably one of the most powerful things. I'm a big student of brands. I love understanding the process and stuff, but now I don't know a single brand of that size that doesn't have a Rebi or a so shop. And what I'm saying is that they all copy Patagonia's war wear initiative, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's a great thing for the world, great thing for the environment. But all I'm saying is that there are opportunities for brands like that to do something new. There was a time when that would've been seen as maybe suicide by a brand to allow people to get their stuff fixed for free and then do a tour around the US and Europe and whatnot where you're fixing people's stuff for free, but that makes people want to jump in bed with them even more, if that makes any sense. And now what you see is every other brand copy paste that same thing, that same initiative.

Cole Heilborn (38:08):

Do you feel like some brands are paralyzed by all of the opportunity? I call it the Netflix paralysis. You log into Netflix and there's so many things that you can't actually pick a thing. Do you feel like brands might struggle with some of that paralysis because there's so much that they could do?

Chris Burkard (38:26):

I struggle with that too. I don't know about you, but I get overwhelmed pretty easy. If I walk into a grocery store, I'm like, oh my God, there's too many options I need to go into am PM or something like that. I feel that, and I do think that that is overwhelming. I think as a young brand, I really appreciate brands that are small and that kind of pick a lane and go for it. And I think that just the creative advice that I would give to young photographers is you don't need to be everything to everybody. There's never been a single editor at a magazine that's hired somebody worth the money or worth their salt because they were good at decent at portraiture and animal photography and weddings and action sports. They hire you because you're a specialist and because you're the best at something and this is the reason why you would hire Paul Nicklin to shoot under Antarctic Ice the best at it.

(39:28):

So I thought long and hard about that in my career, trying to almost silo myself a little bit. And then once I felt like I had a good bearing on what I was really good at and competent at, I felt like then I could branch out into other portfolios. And what I'm getting at here is that brands like Seeger, a young California surf startup kind of brand, it has a cult following. They know their lane, they know their space. Brands like Rourke as well also, they know their lane, they know their space, they know their audience really well. And you see these brands that have had growth like this. And I'm not always saying that that growth is great, but when brands can manage it well because they care. I mean, I know these brands personally and who runs them because there's a handful of people that they care that they live that lifestyle.

(40:24):

What happens is brands get so big that, and I've been in this situation where I've worked alongside new CEOs, is like they're so detached from who works for them. They don't know them, they don't understand. When you have a 2, 3, 400 person employee roster, that becomes really hard to manage. How do you create continuity? How do you kind of all align? And I do appreciate when brands kind of know who they're talking to. And I think that that is always an important thing to stop and pause and realize that maybe taking a step backwards to recognize that and sort of refine your lane is important. I see this nowadays a lot with maybe some of the, I'm trying to share a perspective without pissing anybody off, but I see this a lot with a handful of the pointy end of the spear brands, if you know what I mean, the top

(41:25):

Where they're really trying to appease a number of audiences that maybe don't see eye to eye. You have your core audience that doesn't feel seen because now you're trying to appease this fashion audience and then you have this fashion audience that wants to wear the clothing because the brand is core. And typically what happens, and I've seen this so many times in the surf world where you have big, huge brands just crumble, topple, and it is crazy when you see a juggernaut that seemed like they had it all figured out, just crumble. And I think what's tough is if you totally alienate that core audience, you lose all of your authenticity not to throw it back at 'em. But that's what happens, right?

(42:20):

But if you lean too far into that core audience and you don't invite other people in, that equally becomes really painful. And I know I'm on a tangent, so I'm really sorry, but I do that sometimes and I loved the question and I do feel that paralysis situation. I think that you have these smaller brands who to bring it full circle, they see what happened and they're like, whoa, we want to be even more specific, a little more hyper specific at the start at least because we don't want to go the route that they did or they did.

Cole Heilborn (42:55):

Has good creative been commoditized? Does it have the same value as it once did?

Chris Burkard (43:00):

No, I don't think so because well, that's a tough thing because you can, who's to say, right? Because there are times when I have argued that point and then there are times when I've been wrong. I think a part of being in this field long enough is you realize when you're wrong. I mean, there are times when somebody could go and shoot something that you or I did with all of our toys and all of our tricks and all of our this and that. They shot some with their phone and it performed better. And that's really tough. And honestly, I feel, I really feel for people in marketing departments who are like, well, who do we hire? Do we hire this person who's just really good at making things nimble and easy and quick and maybe it's going to cost one 10th of the price, or are we going to use this production company that's tried and true and tested?

(43:54):

And I think that it depends on, depends on the type of work that you're creating. And if it's long form content that has a storyline and a narrative and an arc that's really important that you work with somebody who knows and gets that. If it's short and it's small and it's simple, why not take a stab, take a risk. But I don't think the value is there to what it once was for sure. And just the budgets aren't there. And I will say I think it's a really hard time in the outdoor industry right now personally, just not saying personally, but just from everybody I talk to and me personally, it seems like it's a tricky time.

Cole Heilborn (44:35):

So you mentioned you get overwhelmed. Does all of this change overwhelm you? And if so, what are some truths or some things that you hang onto to try and help you personally navigate all of the change that maybe others creatives and brands could latch onto as well?

Chris Burkard (44:54):

That is a great question, man. That is such a good question. I don't think I've ever been asked that one. I sort of have those truths within my personal life, like my North Star. Why am I doing what I'm doing? What's my thesis? What's my mission statement? I feel like the best way to answer that is to say that I try to remind myself that if I don't align with the brand personally, if I wouldn't go out and buy those clothes or subscribe to that magazine or whatever it is, or if I don't know their mission statement, then I probably wouldn't consider myself the best person to work for them. And what I mean by that is when I've taught workshops in the past and there's young photographers and I'll always ask them the same question, how many of you want to work for Nat Geo? And everybody raises their hand and I'm like, how many of you know their mission statement? And nobody can repeat it.

Cole Heilborn (45:50):

I think I've seen these videos of you doing

Chris Burkard (45:52):

That. And it's simple. It's like if you want to work for them and if you want to create something good for them, then you need to be a student of that company or that brand. I find myself doing the research, spending the time and being a creative that I feel if a brand is hiring is going to kind of do his due diligence to understand their audience, I'll spend a good couple hours just scrolling through their Instagram feed, looking at what people are responding to them, look at how they're communicating back and forth because maybe that's the linchpin, that's the issue. I take it upon myself to do a little bit of research to kind of understand and maybe just market research to sort of figure out what's missing, right? Because although I'm asking them what does success look like? I'm also asking that of myself and I'm trying to understand that.

(46:46):

And I do feel like to me, inspiration is always king. That's just what I've always felt. If a brand can inspire me, I want to support them. If a brand can get me off the couch, I want to support them. If a brand does something bold, I want to support them because I want to reward that behavior. Does that make sense? And it's hard for me to say if this is just a me thing or if this is what everybody feels. But even the other day, Mamu did that ad campaign where they're like, we're not a streetwear brand. And despite what people feel, I'm like, that's a bold statement. I love that. That's cool.

(47:30):

You got to respect that. Yeah, you got to respect that. And I think that that is exactly what I'm talking about. And with Patagonia, the choices they've made for the environment, people glob onto that. When you wear Patagonia clothing, you feel like you're representing the environment in some way. And so I think that brands nowadays, there was a time when it didn't really matter what you wore as a consumer. I'm a consumer, you're a consumer. But nowadays, I don't want to get too serious here, but we kind of share publicly with the world how we vote, what we care about, what our morals are, what we love in life based upon the brands that we wear, based upon the clothing we wear. And that's how it's always been. You have big Nike hat, you're an outdoor, you're a runner or whatever. And so I think that that is universal, I guess. And that is something that will always say the same.

(48:29):

I really consider and think about my place within that world in terms of creating advertising, meaningful advertising. I ask myself often weekly, what does that mean? What does it mean to create meaningful advertising that not only made its mark for the brand or turned the page, but also I felt good about? And I think that looking back at the jobs that seemed to hit those marks, the universally, it seems to be that when something is inspiring or when something tells a meaningful story that is interesting and it's story-driven story first, I tend to feel like that's really successful. But then again, that's also what I'm passionate about. So I have bias. Sorry,

Cole Heilborn (49:19):

We all do. Any last thoughts that you want to share with the audience before I let you go?

Chris Burkard (49:24):

Man, I don't know. I really hope that young creatives out there search for good mentorship. And I would say that I think that in and of itself will really help the creative space just operate more functionally and more fluidly. And I remember when I was a young guy coming up in this space as a photographer, trying to get advice. There was a couple of people that took me under their wing and really helped. And there was a couple photo editors, Pete Terrace, Jane Seaver, Patagonia, who made all the difference. They changed my life because they gave me harsh feedback. This sort of answers maybe one of your other questions in a different way, but the way in which I think brands get more of what they want is by being willing to offer that harsh critique, that feedback. And there's nothing more painful than when you shoot something and you never see it go live or you never see it come to fruition.

(50:34):

And having to write that email to be like, was there something wrong with the work that is a vulnerable email to write? And it's not fun. And I guess what I would say is that there are times where I really would have just been appreciative of a little bit more critique, a little bit more feedback, a little bit more dialogue between me and the decision makers. There was a creative director, a marketing director at North Face I worked with for a number of years who was just so good and so honest and very much like a bring you in, we're going to figure this out kind of thing. And I loved that. His name was Landon, he was a great guy. And there have been people over the years who have kind of helped shape who I am. And I guess what I would say is I really want people in that role who are strong personalities, who are not afraid to call it as it is and who are not afraid to maybe bum somebody out if it means that collectively the work is better.

(51:41):

Because I would rather leave maybe my feelings a little bit hurt, but knowing that we got the job done and that I grew from it than being disillusioned to the fact that I nailed it. I nailed it for the company or for the brand, but it wasn't what they wanted. And so I think that that kind, that's a full circle thing. Photographers need to look for mentors and directors and whatever camera ops, they need to look for mentors. They need to be able to take good critiques, they need to be able to take good feedback and then inversely the brands, they need to be able to offer good feedback and they need to be able to offer harsh feedback sometimes because that's what makes the industry better. That's what makes it grow. I have come around sometimes done a job that was okay, lackluster, and then the next time I nailed it and it happened because they knew that I was learning and growing and they didn't just write me off and they helped me grow. And I just want to see more of that.

Cole Heilborn (52:42):

Beautiful. Thanks, mark. Chris, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. It's awesome to hear your perspective and your insights. Thank you,

Chris Burkard (52:49):

Dude. I could chat with you all day. Honestly, I love what you're doing. Love your podcast. I think I know this is not your core job, so I just want to say I appreciate the time because I think that it has been an amazing tool. The amount of people that I've forwarded it to, sent it to just to say, Hey, this gives you a good pulse on the industry, and even just knowing that other people are feeling the same way that you and I are or other marketing directors is really helpful.

Cole Heilborn (53:16):

Appreciate it. That keeps me going.

Chris Burkard (53:18):

Yeah,

Cole Heilborn (53:20):

It's a slog as you know, but I think every conversation makes it worth it because you get to meet someone, you get to learn that much

Chris Burkard (53:27):

More. I totally agree.

Cole Heilborn (53:28):

I'm sure people can find you on the internet somewhere. Is there anywhere you want to point 'em specifically?

Chris Burkard (53:34):

No, I'm out there. I'm easy to find and I'm always down to chat and love a good chit chat around marketing, projects, jobs, and whether it's a young creative or a seasoned marketing person, it's always fun. I love connecting people in this industry.

Cole Heilborn (53:52):

Amazing. Chris, have a great rest of your day. Cheers. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share it with a friend or leave us a review on Apple.

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