Charlie Grinnell (00:00:00):

Something that needs to be thrown out the window. Let's say you're an outdoor brand. If you think you're just competing against otheroutdoor brands, you're also competing against Netflix and squid games. You're also competing against the newest video on worldstar hip hop. Again, this iswhy it all starts with audience. It's so competitive out there that you actually have to start getting a really clear understanding of who are thesepeople? Where are they spending time? Who are they following, what channels arethey on? All of these specific things. You need those to be able to then brainstorm, ideate, and plan effective marketing activities.

Cole Heilborn (00:00:33):

On this podcast, we go behind the scenes with industryexperts as they break down what it takes to produce creative work that works.If you're seeking insights from some of the sharpest minds of the industry,this is your guidebook to producing creative work that actually delivers.Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Today I'm sitting down withCharlie Grinnell. He's the co-founder and CEO of Right Metric. Charlie, welcometo the show.

Charlie Grinnell (00:00:55):

Thank you very much for having me. Excited to chat withyou.

Cole Heilborn (00:00:57):

Yeah, thanks for joining. I got to say, so when you and Iand your team connected initially a month or so ago on an intro call, I leftthat call feeling like, oh, these guys get it. They get it on so many levels,and so I'm super excited to have this conversation and we talk a lot about,well, marketing on this show. We talk a lot about creative on this show, andyour perspective is unique because you are an insights and a data firm and youcan provide a lot of clarity to I think some of the things that our industry isexperiencing. And so there's a lot changing in the industry. Audiences arechanging, channels are saturated, creating effective content, what even iseffective content. I think that's a good question. I want to walk through allthree of those things with you today and more. I'll pause there, Charlie. Yeah,why is this a subject that's top of mind for you?

Charlie Grinnell (00:01:49):

Yeah, I think it's a really good question. I think howthis kind of came top of mind is basically through running right metric. Sowhat right metric is just for the audience's context, we're a strategicinsights partner, and basically what we do is we help marketers look externallyat audience data, content data and channel data to provide insight to guidemore efficient and effective marketing activities. So at our core, we have ateam of analysts and strategists that sit there all day every day and are kindof digging through different data sets to mind for insight to help marketers bebetter at their day-to-day. How that kind of plays into this topic ofconversation that we're going to have today about this kind of big shift thatwe're seeing in marketing is in sifting through all that data and sitting ontop of all that data, these kind of three things just started to emerge.

(00:02:41):

One from an audience perspective, one from a contentperspective, and one from a channel perspective. And so that's kind of drivingit. It isn't really us just going like, Hey, we think this. It's just these bigshifts that we've started to see in the data sets in terms of how people arebehaving, where they're spending their time on specific and then what they'respending time with when it comes to content. So there's a lot to dig into, butyeah, it's something that we're seeing across industries and I think thatthat's another unique thing that we have is we work with tons of brands in theoutdoor space. We work with brands in consumer packaged goods, outdoor,financial, you name it. And the stuff that we're going to talk about today arethings that we've seen across industry.

Cole Heilborn (00:03:26):

So you have a background in production, and then you said,I'm leaving production and jump ship. Can you tell me a little bit about thebackground?

Charlie Grinnell (00:03:33):

Yeah, absolutely. So I actually got my start in videoproduction in action sports. So I grew up skiing and mountain biking and beingobsessed in that world. And once you realize that you're not going to go to theX Games, for me, it was probably way earlier than most people, I realized, hey,I'm not going to be a professional athlete, but I loved the industry, I lovedthe culture around it, and I also separately was taking video productioncourses in high school and I was really interested in that. And so on weekendsI'd go out with friends and shoot bike videos or ski videos or snowboard videosor skate videos, and it kind of snowballed and I ended up getting into theaction sports filmmaking side of things. Did that for almost five years. Andabout five years in, I just started to realize, hey, a lot of the content thatI was creating, a lot of the video that I was making was ending up on theinternet.

(00:04:27):

And this is around 2011, 2012. And then I just had thisthought where I was like, well, I know how to do production, but the internetis distribution and that is where at the time I was like, I think this is goingto be a big thing. That's not a crazy thought at the time. I say that it's thisprophetic thing to say, but it's actually not. And yeah, I wanted to learn allabout distribution and specifically at the time it was social. And yeah, I madethat transition from the production side more to the marketing side, working insocial for some big brands like Red Bull and Auria. And then while I wasworking at those brands, I started getting interested in the data behind thatstuff. So getting an understanding of what can we learn from different datasets, whether that's audience data, whether that's content data, whether that'sadvertising data, all of these different things or signals that we can harnessand pull back to inform what our next move is going to be. So it's kind ofweird when you think about this transition from, he used to be this kind ofcreative production guy and now he's this nerdy insights and data and analyticsguy. But for me, that progression was actually quite natural because it waslike I was creating content, then I was marketing content, and then I wastrying to figure out what was performing and why, and how could I use that torefuel things at the beginning again, in terms of what we should be producing.

Cole Heilborn (00:05:54):

I find it fascinating that you started in production andthen you've migrated yourself upstream when you were in the production world.And I'm asking for a friend, did you feel the effects of being downstream andnot being able to impact the big upstream decisions that happened thatultimately determined the success of the things that you were creating?

Charlie Grinnell (00:06:17):

Yes, but I think that you have to think about the timeperiod. So in 20 11, 20 12, there wasn't insights functions, and there wasn'tdata sets available as robust as they are now to dig into inform production.And so it was kind of in its infancy. We're talking a decade plus ago, so itwasn't really, I felt the pain of not knowing what to create and not reallygetting good direction from marketers, but it wasn't necessarily driven bypeople saying, oh, we should do it this way, or we should do it that way. Itwas much more like freeform and kind of creative. And I think what I noticedwas content as a line item in a marketing budget is a huge line item. Andoftentimes you'd be sitting in a meeting and you'd have someone say, I think weshould do this. And then you'd have another person say, I think we should dothat.

(00:07:24):

And then I thought we should do it one other way. And thethree things that those people have in common is they're not the targetaudience that we're trying to actually reach, so should we actually listen toany of them? And that was kind of this aha moment for me where there were a fewsuggestions where someone said, Hey, we should do this, and maybe I disagreedwith those. And so instead of me just saying, well, I disagree, and that'sstupid, the natural kind of progression was like, okay, well what signals can Igather to help inform and use as evidence for this other way? And I thinkthat's something that's unique to marketing, right? Marketing seems to be thisprofession where people will openly say, I'm not a marketer, but what if we tryX, Y, Z? That doesn't happen in finance, that doesn't happen in operations,that doesn't happen in a lot of these other things. So it's interesting becauseyou have marketers, people who look at marketing, they go, we know there's askillset related to marketing. However, I'm still going to say, but you shouldlisten to me because why do you think that

Cole Heilborn (00:08:33):

Is?

Charlie Grinnell (00:08:36):

I think it's because everybody has an Instagram account,everybody has a camera on their phone, everybody views themself as creative.And that's probably generalizing across the top, but I think that everybody whois on social media goes, oh, it's not that hard. I could do that. And I thinksome of the pitfalls there are when you're operating for a brand, it's verydifferent. Running your own social account is very different than running abranded social account because the difference is you can post whatever you wanton your own account because at the end of the day, it's your personal brand andyou get to choose everything to what you want to post, when you want to post,how many times you want to post the image, you want to portray all of thosedifferent things. On a brand account, it's completely different because thereare so many potential things that you have to think about. Is this on brand forus? Can we actually support this? It just goes on and on and on and on and on.And I think that oftentimes social has been simplified. I think however, manyyears ago it used to be like anybody with a phone can be on social. And it'slike, yes, sure. But now it's gotten so much more complicated and fragmentedand the bar is higher. It isn't just like, Hey, you have a phone, and off yougo. You can do social for a brand. Things have changed. Social as a whole hasmatured, and digital marketing as a whole has matured.

Cole Heilborn (00:10:15):

So let's dive into the concept that audiences areevolving. That's something that gets said a lot. It's said a lot on this show.What does that even mean and what's the old way of thinking about evolvingaudiences and what's a new way that you try to approach this from?

Charlie Grinnell (00:10:29):

Yeah, really good question. So I think when we think aboutaudiences, there are some kind of external factors that are contributing tothis, and some of it is digitally focused, some of it is also focused just onsociety as a whole. So what we're seeing is society as a whole is just becomingmore and more fragmented. We're seeing subcultures pop up. We're seeingsocietal norms be changed, whether that's to do with politicians, whetherthat's to do with just what's normal to walk down the street, whether it's,there's so many different things that we could point to of how society ischanging. There's also been some external forces. We're seeing things like theCovid pandemic, ai, climate change. Again, politics, different economic cycles.There's so many things that are swirling around in society and the world as awhole that is starting to impact how people behave, which is naturally going toalso impact how marketers need to be thinking and approaching their marketingactivities.

(00:11:36):

And then I think the last piece around how audiences areshifting is stereotypes are kind of going out the door, and these traditionalstereotypes are no longer holding true. If we look at election results, if welook at the, what's driving different growth in different industries? So theexample that we give a lot is the skincare industry is actually being driven alot by men. That's kind of surprising. Or if you think about people who areglued to their phones, I think the stereotype three, four, five years ago ispeople would say, oh, well that's like kids these days, they're just glued totheir phones. Now when you walk by a restaurant and you look at people who areglued on their phones, it's actually boomers that's not just associated withyoung people anymore. So we're seeing these kind of traditional stereotypesshift and move, and again, that's all indicative of this kind of seismic shiftthat we're seeing audiences go through. So from an audience perspective,there's a lot happening and it's a really interesting time. I think if we zoomout and think about this point in history and look at the macro environment,economy, politics, all of these different things, it's kind of this perfectstorm and we're seeing this seismic shift, and I think we are going to lookback on this time specifically where we're going to see this change.

Cole Heilborn (00:13:09):

So why does that matter for marketers? Why does thatmatter for those of us that are producing content?

Charlie Grinnell (00:13:15):

Yeah, I mean, I think that basically the TLDR is that ifyou don't know who you're talking to, you're talking to no one. So you have tostart with understanding that audience. And this shift means that how you'vebeen approaching audience in the past is probably very, very different. Anexample that we can give, we do a lot of work in the outdoor space, and wethink about how bike brands typically have approached things, and most brandsin the outdoor space have had their persona. Here is the person that we areactually trying to market to, and it's this muse of this 25-year-old shredder.And what you actually start to realize when you dig into the data is theaudience that you're actually trying to reach is a whole bunch of different subaudiences. It might be more casual, e mountain bikers, it might be retireddads, it might be millennial females.

(00:14:14):

All of those could be an audience that you as a bike brandwould want to go and engage with so that hopefully they'll buy their next bikefrom you. But the way that you market to those three people, casual, e mountainbikers, retired dads and millennial women, they are so different. So this kindof one size fits all isn't going to work, especially in an age where we are allinundated with stuff all day long. Competition for our attention is at an alltime high. When you think about it like this, there's 24 hours in a day andhopefully for eight of those hours you're sleeping maybe more, maybe less forsome people. Then some of those hours you're going to be working, and then someof those hours, maybe you're commuting, maybe you're doing chores, maybe you'redoing whatever. So okay, we are on our screens a lot, but there's only so muchreal estate there.

(00:15:16):

And so this other concept of brands thinking that they'reonly competing with their industry is something that needs to be thrown out thewindow because if you're, let's say you're an outdoor brand, if you thinkyou're just competing against other outdoor brands, you're also competingagainst Netflix and squid games. You're also competing against the newest videoon worldstar hip hop. You're also competing against inauguration speech, X, Y,Z. That's been cut up onto TikTok where people are watching Zuckerberg look atsomeone, whatever the latest meme of the day is. So again, this is why it allstarts with audience is it's so competitive out there that you actually have tostart getting a really clear understanding of who are these people? What dothey care about? And when I say what do they care about, I'm getting veryspecific here, where are they spending time?

(00:16:07):

And when I say where are they spending time, who are theyfollowing? What content are they watching? What type of media do they consume?What channels are they on? All of these specific things, you're starting tobuild basically a treasure map of who these audiences are because you needthose to be able to then brainstorm, ideate, and plan effective marketingactivities. So it all starts with audience, right? Then we can get into thetype of content and the type of channels, but audience is super, super important,and we've just kind of seen this one size fits all for the past five to sevenyears in marketing where it was like, oh yeah, here's the audience. Pound somemoney into Facebook and Google Done deal. Everything goes up into the right.Look how great of a marketer I am.

Cole Heilborn (00:16:53):

You bring up an interesting question that I've alwayswondered. You're talking about how the old way to generalize, we would createone example of who our customer was and then we would try to reach them, andnow we're realizing that there's multiple entities and multiple personas.People haven't changed that much over the last five or seven years. So what hasled to this change of having one demographic now we're having five or 10different demographics. Is it just because we're seeing that reflected in thedata or is it because of the social changes and all of these 30,000 foot levelchanges that you're talking about earlier that are creating more tribes, moreniche communities that then reflects in the data?

Charlie Grinnell (00:17:39):

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. It's an interestingquestion and I think it would be both. So it's kind of both bottom up and topdown. So when I say top down, I think absolutely society and the real world ischanging. We've seen that, and that would be the kind of top down is people'sbehaviors are changing. The kind of bottom up is digitally things are maturing.So what was it three, four years ago, people were like, oh, what's TikTok orDiscord or Reddit growing in popularity or snap or whatever the thing is, we'vestarted to see these maturity of these platforms start to pick up, and they'vekind of been in market now long enough where people have started to build theirpreferences because everybody wants to consume things differently. So I thinkit's this kind of perfect storm of we're having societal change at the topwhile we're having the maturation of these different platforms.

(00:18:38):

And those two things together are kind of creating thisshift. Now, what you also said about the data sets on the backend, absolutelythere are things that we're starting to be able to see more and more in thedata sets as time goes on. It's like you're growing a bigger and bigger dataset and things are getting more and more robust, and yeah, we're also seeingthese newer things start to grow faster. So what was it TikTok became, I don'tknow the exact I, I'm going to probably butcher this stat, but TikTok was thefastest app to a billion users since Instagram. And then when chat GPT came on,same thing, fastest growing. So the rate in which adoption is happening isactually fast. And so I think that's another thing is as these new things arecoming online, we are getting more sophisticated as internet users and jumpingon much more quickly. We've been using this technology now since 2008, sincethe iPhone came out, so we're still in the infancy of the internet, but whennew things happen, we're quicker to jump on it, and I think that that's just usbeing more technologically

Cole Heilborn (00:19:48):

Savvy. How do you know when you've reached an appropriatelevel of depth with audience personas? When you're digging through data andyou're creating personas, how do you know when you've gone far enough?

Charlie Grinnell (00:20:01):

Yeah, I think I would just go back to the objective. So itdepends on what is the strategic question that you're trying to solve. So we doa lot of work in building digital personas for brands. So oftentimes brandswill come to us and say, Hey, we have our muse or our persona, or here's somekind of traditional segmentation stuff that we've done, which is great, butthere seems to be this gap because they'll say, Hey, this is Cole. He's a3-year-old male who lives here and this is the persona that we're going after.Okay, that's great. Who does Cole follow? What channel does Cole spend time on?What type of content does Cole watch? Are there different creators? Are thereother adjacent brands that Cole has an affinity to? All of these things areusually left out in that, or they're kind of anecdotal at best, or are thereshifts over time?

(00:20:58):

And so it goes back to understanding what is theobjective, and the objective usually is, Hey, I need to plan content or I needto figure out what channel we're going to put our resources behind. Help mefigure that out. And oftentimes we've found that most kind of traditionalmarket research or persona stuff stop short at the digital ecosystem, which iskind of insane because digital marketing in 2025 and beyond or marketing in2025 and beyond is all digital. So it's kind of insane where it's like, wouldn'tyou want those signals to then use to brainstorm? And I think that's the thingfrom an audience perspective, a lot of this is used to fuel brainstorming, tofuel hypothesis, all of these different ways that you can use it. It's notgoing to be like X equals 10, but it's going, okay, wow, that gives us moredepth and fidelity into who these groups of people are, and it's actually goingto start to give us signals of, oh, we should actually be thinking about thesechannels, or, oh, they're interested in this topic.

(00:22:03):

That's interesting. That's not directly related to ourbrand, but we could actually insert our brand near that because it aligns withX, Y, Z things that we're doing. So that's how deep you want to go. It alsodepends on the use case. Is it a brainstorming thing? Is it an ad targetingthing? Ideally, if it was me sitting on the brand side, I'd want to go as deepas humanly possible because I think that information can be used so broadlyacross the organization. It can be used in marketing, like I said, whether it'sad targeting, content creation, channel focus messaging, it can also be usedoutside of marketing, it can be used for customer service strategy, it can beused for product roadmap. There's so many different things that as digitalcontinues to eat the world, there's going to be more and more data points kindof farted out the back end of the exhaust to count and pull meaning from.

Cole Heilborn (00:22:56):

Yeah, amazing. Do you have any other thoughts on audiencesor should we dive into channels or effective content?

Charlie Grinnell (00:23:06):

Yeah, I mean maybe we go content. I think content wouldprobably be the next one. Then it's like, who are you trying to reach, what areyou creating? And then how are you distributing it?

Cole Heilborn (00:23:18):

Yeah, let's do it. So when you think of effective content,effective being the key word there, what does that mean to you?

Charlie Grinnell (00:23:25):

So to me, effective content is how does this map back tothe marketing objective that we are trying to achieve? So I think thatoftentimes content in the marketing world is just like, what is good content?Everybody, if you walked into a marketing department and asked what is goodcontent? You'd get like 25 different definitions. The creative team might giveyou one thing that pushes the envelope or it's innovative or it's never beendone. The social manager might say it gets engagement. The digital market manageror the e-commerce person is, it drives conversion and the CMO is like it doesall of it. So I think my take on what effective content is, how is itstrategically produced to do the job that it's being deployed against? So somecontent should be designed for top of funnel reach and awareness. How can wecreate something that's going to blow the doors off and make people stopscrolling and actually know that our brand exists? That would be top of funnel.Some content might be middle of funnel, which is educational type content ofregardless of whether people are going to buy the product or service that wesell, they are going to spend time with our brand and they're going to receivesome value, whether that's educational value, entertainment value, informationalvalue, et cetera. Then finally that lower funnel content is like how are wegetting people to buy and how are we getting 'em to buy and buy more?

(00:24:55):

I think that these blanket terms are thrown around inmarketing where it's like, that's good content, but it's really, reallyimportant to think about what is the purpose of this? What are we creating? Thereason you create a documentary film is very different than you create a sixsecond cinema graph that's looping on a product display page,

Cole Heilborn (00:25:16):

Both

Charlie Grinnell (00:25:16):

Pieces of content, both very different objectives and usecases. So I think it's less about what good content is more broadly, and it'smore about what is the purpose of this content and how is this being built intoan ecosystem that allows the target audience to come in and choose their ownadventure and have a great experience.

Cole Heilborn (00:25:39):

So this is the part of the conversation that I feel likethis is where my experience starts to come in and usually we're brought inaround this point and one of the first questions we ask is, well, what's thepoint? Why are we making it? And I did an interview with Chris Picard and hisepisode is coming out, well, it'll already be out once this episode ispublished, but he was saying that today more than ever in his experience,creatives are being asked to give directions to a destination that doesn't exist.And that hit me. I was like, if the guy, Chris is telling me that, and I'mgeneralizing, but brands don't know where they're trying to go and themarketing team is asking creatives for advice and maybe they don't even knowwhat they're trying to get out of it, that raises a bunch of red flags for me.How can we do our job if we don't know what we're trying to achieve? And thisis where I feel like what you guys have to offer is part of the solution toanswering that question. You can answer what is effective content with datarather than hunches and funny feelings. Can you share more about how you goabout doing that?

Charlie Grinnell (00:26:46):

Yeah, absolutely. So I think first and foremost, what youjust said is happening. I do think that more creatives are being tasked withanswering questions that quite frankly, they're not equipped to answercorrectly. That's not a shot at creatives, it's just like it's film me a moviewhen you don't have a camera, that's literally what's happening. So I thinkabout that is happening. A lot of creative shops are getting tasked with moreto where should we go and why, but that isn't their subject matter expertise.They might have things that they can put into that, but to your point, it needsto be grounded in something. So I think that acknowledging that that ishappening is important and I think that the way that you can go about it andsolve for it is actually quite straightforward and it's digging into the data.And when I say digging into the data, how can we get an understanding of whatthat audience is watching and getting really, really specific into what kind ofcontent are they watching?

(00:27:47):

And then more specifically, where is that content? Andthen also how is that content produced? So I'll give an example of a goodexample and a bad example. So if we think about, I dunno, let's use a pet foodexample. So we worked with a global pet food brand and most people would say,okay, well just dig into the content happening in the industry and let's figureout some content themes. And some people might be like, okay, well pet food,cat videos are trending. If I turned around and came to you Cole and said, makeme some cat videos, you'd be like, Kay, that's pretty broad, right?

(00:28:29):

And I think for the creatives out there, and when I sat onthe creative side as a production person with a camera and shooting andediting, I would get these briefs that go make this. And you're like, Kay, whatdo I do with that? There's so much latitude and you need those constraints tobe creative. So had I said to you, go create cap content, you'd be like,looking at me, what are you talking about? Whereas if I said, Hey, we're goingafter cat owners on TikTok and what we've seen is the top performing catcontent on TikTok is usually 45 to 60 seconds. It's shot vertically, it hasquick cuts in the first seven seconds, it has subtitles, it doesn't have music,and it features multiple cats in the video. I'm just riffing on a randomexample right there. I've given you specificity and that specificity isvaluable.

(00:29:30):

And the one thing I want to call out, I'm not saying goout and just copy that verbatim, but what I am saying is these are things,these are specific production specific things that can be included in a briefthat then you can use to do a creative brainstorm and ideate and come up withconcepts that are rooted in data from performance as opposed to you being like,I dunno, I pirates, so maybe I'm going to make a pirate cat video. So I thinkthis is the thing the devil is in the details. Getting in there and going,okay, let's look at top performing content and let's also things that maybe goviral. Let's actually exclude those and look at a category and go through, andthis is what our team does is we watch hundreds and hundreds of videos and wehave a framework in which we pull that stuff together and go, okay, how is itshot? How is it edited? What are all these different production level tactics?We start to isolate them and count them and then we go, oh, that's reallyinteresting. Of the top a hundred cat videos on TikTok, they all have theseseven things in common.

(00:30:37):

Cool. Can we feed that to the marketing team so that whenthey turn around and go brief in their content team, they're going, Hey, weneed this type of content. Here are the seven things to keep in mind. And thisisn't like me as the marketer saying this, this is based on the audience thatwe're trying to reach. This is literally what they're consuming, so let's makesure that we include these elements in them. It's not actually doing thecreative's job for them. You can still be super creative and that's where Ithink the best work comes from. But you're rooting things from a basis of fact.How

Cole Heilborn (00:31:12):

Much do you follow what you're seeing versus leading andsetting a trend, so to speak?

Charlie Grinnell (00:31:20):

Yeah, I think it's a good question. I think that's wherecreative brainstorming should happen. So from us, from a right metricperspective, our whole thing is we think that there's a whole bunch of signalsout there that we can harness and pull in and give to a creative team.Oftentimes we've delivered stuff to our clients and then they take that and arelike, wow, we had an offsite brainstorming session for this campaign and wecame up with some really interesting ideas and it it's like there's that TED Talk,everything is a remix or what is it? And there's another book, Austin Keon,great Artist Steel, is anything really original? Anybody who sits there and islike, we're never been done. I'm like, yeah, okay. Unless you're going to Marsor jumping from the edge of space, everything is going to technically be aremix and that's okay. And so I think about again, how can you brainstorm netnew ideas, linking things back to fact basically. So I'm all for coming up withnew things. Actually, here's a bit of a story. So when I worked in marketing atRed Bull, we came up with a content format called Raw 100,

(00:32:35):

And now I think the series has done over a hundredmillion, 200 million video views. And so we actually came up with this in 20,God, it's almost a decade. Oh, I'm getting old, 2014 or 2015. And so at thetime we were tasked with coming up with a repeatable content format. And sowe're in our annual business planning, myself and two guys I worked with and wewere action sports nerds. And so what we did was we actually went around to thedifferent action sports sites and we'd go on to Pink Bike, we'd go onto newschoolers, we'd go on to transworld and we'd look at all the video pages of toplisted videos. And we also noticed this trend, and this was years ago, all ofthe action sports videos were slow motion with dubstep music, slow motiondubstep. And we were just like, God, this sucks

Cole Heilborn (00:33:31):

That Those were literally some of the first videos I made.

Charlie Grinnell (00:33:35):

Yeah, dude, guilty, same. And at the time it was like, ohmy gosh, I can use a dead mouse song and have someone ripping a corner in it inslow motion. And I was like, oh, I am Steven Spielberg. Anyway, so as a jokeinternally, we were like, what if we just did the opposite? No slow motion, nomusic.

(00:33:56):

And then what we realized at the time was when we lookedthrough all of these different sports sites, when the top, I think 20 videos,there was a handful of videos across all sports that performed really well, andit was like this kind of raw style where it was quick speed, jump cuts, reallyinteresting filming techniques, really great sound design. And we were like,huh? We were like, okay, what if as a joke, we were just like a hundred secondsraw and we call it raw 100, and we can use that format across. And we had a guynamed Rupert Walker produce the first one with Brandon Uck, a Red Bull mountainbike athlete, and they knocked it out of the park, and we published that thingand it went huge. And we were like, huh. And so anecdotally, we were looking atdata, but that was us brainstorming while looking at these kind of things.Right? At the time, we didn't have the tools that we have now, so we had allthese tabs open with transworld, pink bike, new schoolers we're very, verymanually doing it. But again, that doesn't change the ethos of us being like,we are trying to reach those audiences. Let's look at what those audiences areconsuming.

(00:35:12):

So it was very, very manual back then. Now there are toolsthat can help with this, but that also helped inform our creativebrainstorming. And then off we go, and I think now there's probably 30 or 40different raw 100 videos and athletes were approaching us, filmmakers wereapproaching us to be like, can I do a row 100? And it was like, okay, cool. Wecame up with this format and it was just like cool, a little bit of gut, littlebit of data, and then off we go.

Cole Heilborn (00:35:42):

That's really funny. Anecdotally. So making mountain bikevideos to dubstep was how I got into filmmaking and how I realized that theoutdoor space is where I wanted to work. But it's funny, I made a handful ofthose videos and then I remember a friend of me, a friend of mine coming to meand saying, Hey, we should make one that's just all raw sound, no music. Andlittle did I know that maybe you and your team were the ones that led thatcharge, and that's ultimately how it got to me.

Charlie Grinnell (00:36:10):

Well, it's funny you say that, right? Because the content,I think the content at the time was good. Like Rupert and all the producersthat we worked with, they created awesome content, and then we as Red Bull hadsuch great distribution, which is a big piece of the pie, and that's why Ithink that this is so important is when we talk about audience contentdistribution, all three of those things are intrinsically linked in drivingsuccess because you can understand the audience, you can create a great pieceof content, but if you don't have your distribution strategy nailed, no one'sgoing to watch it. Or you can create a great piece of content and not have thereally understanding of the audience and have great distribution, and it mightstill perform like shit. And then you can have great distribution, but if youhave crappy content, you need all three to be able to do things well. So yeah,I think we were fortunate at the time that we had great distribution, which iswhy I think it popped off so much as well as it did is because we were very,very focused on understanding that audience and then using that understandingof that audience and their preferences to inform the content that we were thencreating and going to pump into the distribution machine.

Cole Heilborn (00:37:19):

Well, it also makes me think about you could use thatmodel and just look for gaps in content, totally like you did here. I thinkabout storytelling and the stories that are told in the outdoor industry, and Iwonder, gosh, what if we made a map of all of the stories and then identifiedthe stories that haven't been told or the pockets that we haven't explored?Because the stories that get told are often a rinse and repeat. They're thesame story just on a different mountain or in a different environment, andthey're kind of all the same.

(00:37:52):

We did a film with Athletic Brewing about some triathletesdoing an Ironman, and it performed pretty well. And I think in part it wasbecause realizing after the fact that there actually aren't that many filmsabout triathletes and ironmen out there. There's a ton of ski films and there'sa ton of mountain bike films, but Ironman is itself, there was definitely aless level, there's less content out there. We didn't realize that going intoit. I think we kind of got lucky, but it makes me think about what are theholes that we can be looking for and then filling with creative ideas ordifferent stories.

Charlie Grinnell (00:38:29):

We do a ton of analysis like that for brands, andbasically it's doing what you just said, can we look out there and see what hasbeen created? And then most importantly, how was the performance of that? Wasit good performance or bad performance? And then how many pieces of content arelike that? And you start to get this matrix of saturation versus performance.

Cole Heilborn (00:38:55):

And

Charlie Grinnell (00:38:55):

What you're going to start to find is, oh, they'reactually really, really interesting topics and themes that perform super, superwell, but they haven't been told that many times. And the times they have beentold they perform really, really well. So if I was sitting in house at a brandas a marketer, I'd be like, oh my gosh, we could absolutely knock that storyout of the park and it hasn't been beaten into submission, and we're not justgoing to do the same thing over and over again. I definitely want to jump onthat. I think this idea, but the only way that you can find that out is bylooking and doing the analysis,

Cole Heilborn (00:39:32):

Doing the hard, hard work of digging through the data

Charlie Grinnell (00:39:34):

And doing the hard work of digging through the data, andit is a pain in the ass. The whole reason we started right metric is becausewhen I was on the brand side, I was like, okay, cool, I'll look into it. Andthen I realized how long it takes and how fragmented it is. We work with over25 different data providers to pull all that into one place and then clean it,organize it, visualize it, do insight on top of it. So it is insanely valuable,the end state, but getting there is very much a labor of love, much likeproduction. Think about the times that I think about when I used to work, Imade ski films for poor boys. A lot of my friends would see me on the redcarpet at a movie premiere, and I'm like, yeah, but you don't realize the 3:00AM wake up in waist deep snow sled won't start whatever the thing was. And soit's like, oh, this thing is so awesome. At the end, I'm like, that one shottook us two days to just get that one shot. And so yeah, oftentimes it's worthit, but it definitely isn't just snap your fingers and it happens. Somethingthat

Cole Heilborn (00:40:35):

Maybe I'm guilty of is asking the question quality versusquantity. And I wonder, is that even a relevant question anymore? Doeseverything, do we need quantity and quality at the same time, or do you feellike one versus the other is still an appropriate question to ask?

Charlie Grinnell (00:40:52):

Well, I think my first question would be is definequality. Because quality to you might mean very different. Quality to me mightmean very different quality to someone else. I also think that does qualitymatter necessarily. So I think about, we did this at Red Bull where we didthese super polished videos, and then we'd also have iPhone, Blair Witchproject, handheld videos outperform. We had this where there was an athletenamed Daniel Bodine. He was a Swedish snowmobiler, and he did the world's firstdouble back flip on a sled. This is like 2016. And in typical Red Bull fashion,we had the helicopter filming, the helicopter filming the thing. But what wealso did was we sent an intern there with an iPhone, and anywhere that a camerawent, the intern with an iPhone was right there holding a phone recording.

(00:41:51):

And the reason was we wanted polished, but we also wantedunpolished. The very first time he landed the double back flip, we have thisclip and they're far away, they're watching and he lands and everyone'sfreaking out. And so they start running towards him. So our intern is filmingon his phone where you can see him in the background, you can see Daniel doingthe double back flip landing, and then they all start running towards him. Andyou hear our intern running and Daniel is screaming, he starts crying. He's sohappy. He's just done this world first. And his, I think, girlfriend, yeah,girlfriend at the time is there. He's done this thing and the emotion is soraw. And so we actually cut out that clip. It was like a 45 second clip whereit's like Daniel does the back flip. He lands, our intern is running over andfilming this thing iPhone style. And that clip outperformed the entire polishedthing that we did.

(00:42:55):

And so when we talk about quality, and I think whenmarketers say the word quality, I go, what does that mean? Because I thinkwe've actually seen the rise of unpolished content, whether it's through thenews, whether it's through everyone having a really great phone on their thing.That doesn't mean that you don't need polished great content, but I think thatquality means different things to different people. So that would be my thingaround the quality thing. On the quantity side of things, I think that content,especially on specific platforms, so on TikTok, if you create a great piece ofcontent, if the content is truly quality for that platform, it will find anaudience. Now, I hesitate using that word quality because technically qualitycontent on TikTok could be shitty handheld iPhone video, but that algorithm isgoing to serve it up to people.

(00:43:51):

And if people are actually watching it and engaging withit and spending time with it, then that's a signal to the algorithm to serve itto more people. So I think about organic social as the Petri dish, and ouradvice is create as much content as humanly possible, feed it into your organicsocial, and then whatever over performs versus your benchmark baseline average.That's the thing that you put dollars behind because that's a signal. And youbasically treat content and organic as this Petri dish where you're testingthings over and over and over again, and anything that goes above a certainthreshold, double down on that. And you're probably going to create a wholebunch of content that underperforms, maybe you'll do stuff that's average, andoccasionally you'll have things that go above the baseline. That's what youshould put gasoline onto in the forms, in the form of ad dollars. And then youuse these awesome platforms to get that content in front of more people becausechances are, if it performed well organically, it's going to perform well withmore dollars behind it.

Cole Heilborn (00:44:59):

So maybe a better word instead of quality is intentional.And I guess I think of that because intentional means there's thought, there'sstrategy, there's an understanding of the platform, and the audience doesn'thave to relate to production quality.

Charlie Grinnell (00:45:14):

But I think that's the thing is most people think thatthey know what good quality content is. Oh, and my taste and my creative, blah,blah, blah. And I think that what I've learned in all the years of working inmarketing as well as now running an insight company is I don't know whatquality is. And even, okay, cool, I'm on all the platforms, but what I'm seeingis very different than what you're seeing, which is very different than whatyour client is seeing, which is super different than what the audiences thatwe're trying to reach is seeing.

(00:45:47):

We all live in our own echo chambers. So to sit there andgo, I think this is what we should create, I think it's quite arrogant, and Ithink that you should let the data guide you. And notice I said guide notdictate. I think that you should use the data to help surface signals that youcan then use to creatively brainstorm and use those to ideate things and thentreat it as a test. Hey, we're going to produce this. Obviously it's going totick the box. From a business perspective, it aligns with an objective, it hitson key messages, whatever. But then, okay, cool. Yeah, we're going to run thisas a test, and if this goes well, then yeah, cool. We're going to amplify it.Should we talk about channels? Happy to talk about channels. I guess we'realready talking about channels. Yeah,

Cole Heilborn (00:46:38):

What do you think about?

Charlie Grinnell (00:46:40):

What do I think about channels? I think we are witnessinga huge fragmentation of channels, and generally speaking, it has kind of beenthe duopoly, right? Facebook meta and Google, basically Facebook, Instagram,and then Google. That's basically where digital marketing was. I think we'veseen that duopoly shift into a LY with the rise of TikTok. But now that we'restarting to see this fragmentation happen, we're seeing blue sky, we're seeingpeople spend more time on niche discord servers and Reddit threads and all ofthese different things. People are spending time on different channels andconsuming in a way that they prefer to consume. So I think five years ago, themarket wasn't as mature, so there weren't all these other platforms. It waslike, okay, well you do marketing, cool, put it on Instagram, put it onYouTube, put it on Facebook, maybe Twitter done.

(00:47:43):

Now what we're starting to see is growth of certainplatforms. Snap has over 300 million monthly active users. Now you're startingto see, obviously TikTok broke a billion. You're starting to see huge usage ofDiscord. You're starting to see huge usage of Reddit. You're starting to seeall of these things are growing, which means those platforms are starting tomature, which is creating this fragmentation because there's more places forpeople to hang out. And people have realized, oh, well, I really like chattingabout things in this Slack channel or in this Discord server. Whereas you mightbe like, you know what? I really like scrolling my Instagram reels feed. Orsomeone else might be like, you know what? I'm just in a few different WhatsAppgroups with a bunch of friends, and I have a steady stream of content thatcomes in like that. A lot of things are starting to kind of go down in the dms,this rise of dark social where people aren't necessarily publicly sharingcontent anymore or having conversations in the comments, they're DMing things.So 10 years ago, I might've seen something and been like at, cool, check thisout. This is awesome. Now I'll actually just DM you the post and be like, whatdo you think of this?

(00:48:57):

And then we'll have a conversation about it. But from amarketing perspective, the marketer, all they can see is how many times wasthis post shared? And that's a really interesting metric that we're looking ata lot from a content perspective is how much is this content being shared?Because we're going to see, our hypothesis is that we're going to see sharesincrease because shares is indicative of this dark social behavior where peopleare spending more time discussing content in private instead of doing itpublicly on the comments of the piece of content. And I'm seeing this in, okay,sample size, one 34-year-old Canadian male, I'm in a whole bunch of differentgroups, whether it's Instagram, WhatsApp, iMessage, where we're just constantlysharing in links from other platforms, and we as friends can have aconversation about things. And I think that that behavior is on the rise, andwe're seeing that in some of the data. Why do you think that is?

(00:49:57):

Again, I go back to the way that platforms are maturingand people don't necessarily want to have conversations in public about things.So for example, we've all shared memes that are probably inappropriate andoffside that we would never comment on publicly, but you definitely chuckleabout it and share it with a close friend and who has the same twisted sense ofhumor that you have. And so if you shared that publicly, there's a good chancethat you'd get canceled or get in trouble, whatever. Or maybe you don't sharethat necessarily publicly, but you're still going to engage with it. So I thinkthat yeah, there has been this increase in privacy. I think people want to bemore private, which is fine. Everyone has that right to be private. I think thebalancing act for businesses and for individuals as a whole is we want privacy,but we also want things personalized. And in order to have personalization, youneed data, which is this really interesting balance. So I go back to thisphrase, remember when hashtag delete, Facebook was trending a few years ago,and everyone was like, oh, the privacy. And you can see Apple with their adshave really leaned into privacy. That's iPhone, that's privacy. Cool. Everyoneis very outspoken about privacy. Fine. We also love that Spotify recommends newmusic that we hadn't thought about.

(00:51:24):

We also love that Starbucks recommends a new drink in theapp that you've never tried. We also love that TikTok seems to give us contentthat we didn't even know we would be interested in. For example, for me,apparently, I like watching power washing time-lapse videos. I didn't knowthat. I like that. Boy do I like that. So it's this fine balance of privacy andpersonalization.

Cole Heilborn (00:51:49):

And

Charlie Grinnell (00:51:49):

So I think what we're seeing is people can still haveprivacy in dms like that. I think that could be also something that iscontributing to it.

Cole Heilborn (00:52:03):

Interesting. So then the natural question that everymarketer would ask is, does my piece of content need to love on every platform?Or do I just go all in on one platform? And I'm sure your answer is going tobe, well, it depends.

Charlie Grinnell (00:52:18):

Yes, yes. It depends. I think it depends on a couplethings. So let's talk about a platform or channel perspective. Number one isshould my content be on all platforms or some platforms? I'd say it depends onwhat platforms you're currently active on, and that depends on what yourbusiness is trying to do.

(00:52:41):

So before we talk about should you customize your contentper platform, you got to talk about what platforms are you on first and why,and does it make sense? So when I used to work in-house on the brand side, Iworked as head of social at aia. We were on a whole bunch of different socialchannels. We were on Pinterest, we were on Facebook, we were on Instagram, wewere on Twitter, and each social channel had a specific purpose. Facebook wasliterally to drive traffic. It's the only reason we were on there, and when Isay drive traffic, it was to drive traffic to auria.com so people can buythings, or it was to drive traffic to our stores. So primarily the content thatwe were posting on there is I didn't need to perform well from an engagementperspective. The metric that I was looking at was is Facebook driving moretraffic month over month?

(00:53:28):

Cool. Instagram, on the other hand, is what we used forbrand building. When people were stumbling upon us or finding out, we wantedthem to feel really, really good about our brand and really have anunderstanding of what is the Auria brand and what are the things that we'reinterested in? And we wanted them to spend time with us, which meant we lookedat engagement. That was a big focus for us. And then Twitter at the time beforeit changed to X was all about customer service. People were just asking abouttheir orders. Where's my order this? Right? And so we were actually looking atresponse time, how many more customer service metrics there? So what I justdescribed to you, all social media platforms, all different purposes, alldifferent metrics that we look at. Now, what does that mean from a contentperspective? I've just told you three very different things, which means from acontent perspective, does one size fits all for those three things?

(00:54:26):

Probably not. And so I think that that's something that alot of marketers probably agree with and nod along. They go, yeah, that makessense. And they think about it operationally and go, oh, shit. That means theyhave to tailor content and be very, very specific. And I think what ends uphappening is different people come in over the top and have different opinionsand say, oh, well, there's no downside to just posting that there. And Iactually tend to agree in certain circumstances there is no downside, but beingmore focused about things and using different channels to drive to otherchannels. So for the sake of example, a piece of content that we're going topublish on Instagram that's more of a brand building piece of content, there'sno point in publishing that on Facebook it's going to perform like shit. It'snot going to drive traffic. Some people would say, oh, but what if the peopleon Facebook want to get exposed to our brand? Fine, they can come find us onInstagram if they will. They're sophisticated enough. But we had very, veryspecific channel strategies that we were focusing on and very, very specificmetrics per channel that were contributing to our footprint on social, whichhad metrics which were contributing to where we wanted the business to go. Sogetting very, very specific about that. So I think from a content perspective,I would always say tailor it as much as you can and be intentional with it.However, I also realize that that adds operational burden, cost complexity, butI also think that creating one thing and putting it everywhere, I just don'tthink it's going to be as effective.

(00:56:17):

And I think if you're trying to be many things toeveryone, you're going to be nothing to no one. Well, and to

Cole Heilborn (00:56:24):

Come back to a point you made earlier, I mean, every brandis competing with Netflix and Amazon and Hulu. That's a tall order to competeagainst.

Charlie Grinnell (00:56:34):

Yeah. Well, and what's so funny, just let's think aboutscrolling through your newsfeed, right? Okay. You're going to scroll throughyour newsfeed right now. You might see a post from an outdoor brand. The nextthing you're going to see is a ridiculous political meme. The next thing you'regoing to see is a shitty ad for paper towel. The next thing you're going to seeis an athlete that you follow, and then the next thing you're going to see isthe national championship football game ad to watch on Amazon or whatever. Thenext thing right there in the context of scrolling a feed, that's where yourbrand is showing up. Why should the person scroll in care? That I think, is thething that marketers need to think about

(00:57:24):

Is like, yeah, cool, sure. If you're Patagonia, you'recompeting with Artics and you're competing with North Face and you're competingwith whatever, yeah, you're competing with them commercially. But fromattention perspective in the feed, you're competing with so much more. And so Iactually think that, yeah, when you're thinking about coming up with contentfor your brand. Yeah, there are going to be things that you need to do to hityour right talking points and your value prop and all that sort of stuff. Butthink about, okay, if this is going to come right after a hilarious meme andright before a super controversial clip from some political thing, is thisactually going to be memorable? Will people actually stop scrolling and spendtime with this? Or are they just going to be like, oh, shitty ad next? And Ithink many marketers don't think about it that way.

Cole Heilborn (00:58:12):

Yeah. So I don't want to summarize your entire last hour,but I'm going to try, I think there's way more to it than what I'm about tosay, but as I listen to you talk and I listen to you talk about these threeideas, audiences, channels, and creating effective content, the thing thatkeeps coming to my mind is that all people want is community, and they wantauthenticity. And I feel like everything that you've just said, if I were totest it against those two concepts, that's what everyone is looking for. Andnow people go about that different ways. People find that in different ways.But I feel like that seems true to me.

Charlie Grinnell (00:59:01):

And I think how I would boil it down is there's threethings understanding your audience. And when I say your audience, not oneaudience, understanding your audience means a collection of sub audiences. Andwhen I say understanding them, I mean deeply understanding them, not creating aone-off persona where it's like, this is Cole and he does X, Y, Z. It's like,Hey, our audience are these groups of people and they behave in these ways. Andwhen I say behave, they follow these types of people. They're interested inthese types of topics. They watch this type of content, they follow these typesof creators, athletes, et cetera. They love these types of brands. You have adigital picture of who they are. Then I would say, okay, from a contentperspective, combined data with creativity, right? Notice everything that we'vetalked about today has been about how can you use insight from content toinform brainstorming.

(00:59:57):

I didn't say just do that. I said, use this as signals andthen take that away and add your context and your nuance and your knowledgeabout your business, your industry, et cetera. And then come up with ideasbased on that. So that's from a content perspective is merge this kind ofcreativity with data together because you're actually just going to come upwith better ideas that are likely going to perform better than what you'redoing today. And then I think the third thing is, as you start to distribute thisstuff, don't just do one size fits all. Reference the content stuff and theaudience stuff to go, okay, from a channel perspective, where should we focusour efforts, number one, and how should we come alive on those channels? Ithink understanding and being intentional about those three things, and yes, Iagree. If you do those three things well, what's that going to do? It's goingto create authenticity, which is then going to build a strong sense ofcommunity.

(01:00:54):

But the way that you create authenticity is by connectingwith people. How do you connect with people? You listen. You understand whothey are and where they are and what they spend their time doing. And so Ithink it is actually mapping back to that. I actually haven't heard the waythat you described it into that authenticity or community. I feel like maybe Ineed to steal that, but it is, these are very tactical things that I've kind oftalked about. But yeah, they're absolutely laddering back to those overarchingthings of people want to be seen and heard, and people want to have a sense ofcommunity. And the way that you can do that as a marketer is instead of justcontinuing on talking and yelling and doing the thing, stop, look and listen ataudience channels, content preferences, and then use that to adapt yourstrategy and your tactics moving forward.

Cole Heilborn (01:01:47):

I love that. I love, I love asking more questions thanjust throwing things out into the wind and hoping that it sticks

Charlie Grinnell (01:01:56):

Well, what's that age old thing? It's like you have twoears in one mouth for a reason. I think marketers need to listen to that alittle more. I love that. It's like, Hey, instead of just yelling from the treetops, we have this new thing. We have this new thing. Use those ears, use thoseeyes, pause, then use your brain and then create something from there. You justcreated the title for this episode, two ears, one Mouth Marketing a Love story.

Cole Heilborn (01:02:27):

No, that's awesome. I appreciate you sharing this. My lastquestion for you, do you feel like for creatives out there, is it going to getbetter or worse? And I know that's subjective.

Charlie Grinnell (01:02:38):

That's a loaded question. I think it's going to getreally, really, I think the future for creatives out there is actually quitebright. I just think that it needs a bit of a reframe. So I think friends ofmine who still work on the creative side of the house are like, Hey, what do wemean? What's happening with ai? Should I be worried? Especially with what we'reseeing with ai, image generation, ai, video generation, all of that, are yougoing to be replaced by ai? Probably not. But what I think becomes more andmore important is taste for creatives. So any talented creative has a reallygreat sense of taste and design and context and nuance. And those are thingsnot only that make us human, but those are also things that make creativesgreat creatives. And so that's not going anywhere. And so I think what's reallyexciting is if I was working in video, I'd be like, how can I use AI to removefriction from parts of the process that have just been a pain in the ass?

(01:03:45):

And that is really, really exciting from a productionperspective, but it's never going to be able to outsource my creativity. It'snever going to be able to outsource my lived experience and how you'redirecting that AI to do that. So I actually think from a creative perspective,I think that, I'm going to use the word good, creative, successful, effectivecreative is going to be increasingly difficult to produce. And the creativesthat can harness the tools out there, whether it's ai, whether it's insightfrom things and work alongside their marketing partners to create things thatladder back to business objectives, I actually think it's going to get really,really fun for that. But I think that the majority of creatives that are maybejust kind of sitting there and going like, ah, well, I'm an artist and I'm justgoing to kind of create this. I think that they're probably not going to beworking in a marketing department for much longer if they take that approach.

Cole Heilborn (01:04:44):

And I think for all the reasons you've described in thispodcast, good creative, again, that doesn't mean quality necessarily. Quality agood creative, I think is going to become necessary. It's become table stakesbecause there is only going to be more out there in the world. And how do youcut through that? You figure out what good is and what does that mean for youraudience, and where do you publish it? And that takes creativity.

Charlie Grinnell (01:05:09):

Well, and people are just going to be ruthless in that.They're just not going to watch it,

Cole Heilborn (01:05:14):

Right?

Charlie Grinnell (01:05:14):

So that's the other thing that actually I think is kind ofa blessing, is you'll know pretty quick whether it's good or not. And when Isay good, I'm not saying quality, whether it's successful or effective, thoseare probably the better words, is because cool, you can spend all this time andit's going to go out there, and if it gets no views, it's not the audience'sfault, it's your fault. And so I think that is actually another luxury that wehave as marketers, both on the marketing side as well as on the creative side,is we have this awesome feedback loop called Organic social, put it out there,and if it's so good, prove it. And if it's not, then yeah, okay, you can learnand guess what? Do it again, over and over and over again. So yeah, I think it'san exciting time. Well, Charlie, thank

Cole Heilborn (01:06:06):

You for taking the time. Thank you for sharing what youguys are up to over at Right Metric. If folks want to follow along or learnmore about what you guys are capable of, where can they find you?

Charlie Grinnell (01:06:16):

Yeah, so I'm very, very active on LinkedIn, so just followme on LinkedIn. I'm posting content basically every day over there, yellingabout stuff like this. Right Metrics website, Right Metric co. Yeah, don't be astranger. Slide in my dms. If you ever want to nerd out, happy to jam.

Cole Heilborn (01:06:36):

Well, I appreciate the work that you're doing. It'sencouraging to know that there's fellow video production guys out there whounderstand the struggle and are doing something about it and providing themeans to make informed strategic decisions. That's exciting for me. And soyeah, it's been awesome to get to know you, and I look forward to seeing whereyou go in the future.

Charlie Grinnell (01:06:56):

Likewise. Thanks for having me.

Cole Heilborn (01:06:58):

All right. See you Charlie. See you. Thank you forlistening to this episode of the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Please share itwith a friend or leave us a review on Apple.

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