Cole Heilborn (00:01):

Welcome to the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with Chris Pew, the CEO and co-founder from TREW Gear. Chris, welcome.

Chris Pew (00:09):

What's up Cole? Thanks for having me.

Cole Heilborn (00:11):

Yeah, thanks for joining. I'm excited to have you on the show and talk all about your TREW to You film series that you guys got going on. Yeah, I love what you guys are doing. I love the creativity and the outside the box thinking when it comes to the big question of as brands, how do we stand out in 2024? Because that's a tough thing to tackle, it seems like. So Chris, I'm curious to hear from you, on a scale of one to 10, how hard is it for brands to stand out in 2024 from your perspective as a business owner?

Chris Pew (00:50):

Well, first of all, thanks Cole for the opportunity to talk about TREW to you. I'm really psyched to be on the show. I love the podcast. I love the conversations you've had exploring the nuances for marketing outdoor outdoor industry. Scale of one to 10, how hard is it to stand out? That is such a hard question to answer. In a strange brand, we're like a legacy small brand. We've been around for 16 years, and so for customers who engage in our particular style of back country skiing and snowboarding, we're pretty well known. But for skiers and snowboarders outside of that kind of core group, we're an anomaly. They probably haven't heard of us. They might recognize the thumbs up or something like that. So I would say if I was starting a brand right now, I would max out that scale that's a 10 because there's so much product out there, there's so much incredible product, there's so much incredible media in content.

(01:53):

But for us, I think it's a little bit more nuanced in the, I don't know, six or seven range. We have our little slice of the pie that we kind of defend, like our positioning in the industry, and then our strategy for standing out is really about trying to get more people to see what we're doing that we think would appreciate it. So we're not trying to find more of your everyday skier and snowboarder. We're trying to find more of these kind of core users that we know our products and brand would have a resonance with.

Cole Heilborn (02:30):

Well, let's back up a little bit. For folks who don't know, can you share a little bit about TREW Who you are and what you guys do?

Chris Pew (02:37):

Yeah. We started in, around 2009 was the first year we were selling products, and we started in Hood River, Oregon. And our original product Promise was to create this new type of outerwear for backcountry free ride skiing and snowboarding. So if you think back to 2008, 2009 frame touring bindings were just coming out your marker, duke backcountry at skis were getting super fat and really light at Boots were a thing with walk mode. People were making their own splitboards, some brands were producing, but so there's this hard goods industry for this kind of new type of backcountry skiing, but there wasn't an outerwear kit for that rider. It was like either you're wearing a mountaineering kit or a more traditional Alpine touring kit, which is tight, no pockets lightweight or you had your resort wear that you were wearing outside, and that's what we were doing.

(03:37):

We were wearing outside of the bounds, we were wearing bonfire pants and an old Marmite Shell or Burton pants and an old arteric shell. We were kind of putting together because we wanted the heft and durability and fit of resort wear, but we wanted something like super waterproof and breathable and durable. So we just put it together and made a baggy kind of backcountry bib. And that product, the Truth Bib has been our best selling product for the past 16 years. There's a specific customer that when they touch and feel our product or find our website, they're going to get it right away. And there's some people that don't. That's totally great. And so our kind of objective on the marketing side is to wave our flag out there and let those customers who are passionate about backcountry skiing in the same way that we are a resort ski in the same way that we are, let 'em know that we're here, this is what we're doing, and these are our values. So that is to your initial question, that is how we want to stand out. We want to stand out to customers in a way that our specific customers can find us, not just like, here we are to everybody because our products aren't for everybody. And some people would buy our products and they'd be like, oh, this is too heavy duty than what I wanted, or I wanted an insulated pan, or something like that, or is this pretty targeted towards these specific users?

Cole Heilborn (05:07):

I appreciate that background, that context. That's helpful. When did the idea for the film series, is that what you call it, a film series? Is that

Chris Pew (05:14):

Yeah, we call it a film contest. We've called it a film project, a community sourced film project. And I mean, that's why it's so fun to talk to you Cole right now because we've done it for two seasons. We're gearing up for our third, and it's really evolved every year. But basically we announced a contest that we're going to be picking 10 teams. There's a large cash prize and gear and other perks from the other sponsors of the contest. And we picked 10 teams and then the teams get eight or nine weeks to film, I think it was maybe eight the first year, nine the second year, nine weeks to film and for six weeks to edit. And the final product can be no longer than five minutes. So it's a five minute edit. The only prompt we gave him was that what I just told you, what's TREW to you?

(06:06):

So pretty open-ended. We wanted to just see these different creatives and athletes and our industry just put themselves out there and create these unique little vignettes. And then we wanted to put 'em all together. So we stitched them all together, and one 50 is a 55 minute kind of feature presentation, and we do that in the summer to take it out the following fall as like a proper ski film tour. And we take it to 10 different stops, and each stop is the hometown of one of the participating teams. So we basically go to their town or mountain or city and throw them a premier, and then we do a digital release at the same time. And the voting takes place online, but a lot of the voting takes place in person. We put QR codes up so we can see these huge bumps in voting during these in-person events. And then we just tally up the votes and decide the winner and send the winner a check. And that's basically how we've run it for the past two years. Did you get a chance to watch the films, I guess, since we last talked? Yeah,

Cole Heilborn (07:15):

Yeah, I did watch some of

Chris Pew (07:16):

Them. Cool. Yeah, so I'd be curious to talk to you about what it was like viewing, because I think the most interesting part about this project is going out and viewing it, viewing the project with a new audience in these different locations and hearing the different feedback or watching different audiences clap and yell at different times into different parts of the film. And I really dug that. It's like, wow, this is cool. We're taking this thing that can mean different things to different audiences.

Cole Heilborn (07:49):

I'm going to generalize here. A lot of brands will go out and produce a brand anthem piece, so they'll make a film or they'll tell a story to help contribute to that brand awareness. What you guys did though is you didn't make something and then tell everyone who you were. You passed the mic to other folks and said, Hey, who do you think we are as a collective, this community of folks within the TREW brand? And that's something that I think about a lot, which is it seems like from a brand's position to be able to make something and share it with an audience that takes, I find that to be sometimes presumptuous, to assume that the consumer wants to hear from the brand. Now, there's brands that do this really, really well because they've built a community and they've built trust. But brands who maybe don't have buckets of community building or buckets of trust, that seems like a big hurdle to get over. And I feel like it's one of the missing pieces that brands often don't think about when they're contemplating diving into this world of community building around storytelling. Was that a conscious thought on your guys' behalf to pass the mic or did that just kind of happen by accident and it's worked out really well?

Chris Pew (09:00):

No, that was totally the original idea, and I think it worked really well in this case because part of the message, the brand value that we were trying to promote is creativity and self-expression. So because that's what we're trying to promote, the vehicle that we're distributing that message is actually people being creative. So it's kind of the actual design and structure of this contest promotes that idea in itself. And so that's why I think that works particularly well for this idea or for our brand, rather our brand. We've always tried to, internally, we talk about it, we're a brand for the people. We want to always have this connection to the community and interesting community members. And there's a lot of different facets. We can talk about that concept. And part of it is really about your original question is standing out, right? It's like we're not going to support X Games riders, not because we don't like them or respect them, it's not our value that we're adding to the industry.

(10:13):

Those individuals are pretty well taken care of by big companies, and big companies should take care of them because responsible for progressing the sport and are responsibility that we think is, we find a lot of value in promoting these unique individuals and lifting up different parts of our community that other parts of the community didn't know exist, and letting everyone check each other out and feel like we're all growing this interesting perspective and outlook together. So yeah, I completely agree with you of your assessment on brand films too. I think the other thing I would say on that is at their best brand films can be incredible, well-produced, well thought out, expanding people's perspectives. They can have messages that uplift parts of communities too. But I would say at their worst brand films are just these kind of self-promoting exercises that every, and we've made some things like this in the past too, that almost if you're an entrepreneur or you're working in a brand, you almost can't resist the urge to tell people what you're doing.

(11:29):

They're like, I need to tell you why this is so important. I need to tell people why what we're doing is so important. But as a customer or just an audience member, that's not really the most interesting thing ever is to have a brand just tell you why they're so great. Or what even worse than that is having a brand tell you what their values are. So you're like, fine, I get it. Those are your values, but it's more impactful if they can show you if they can be living those values and acting with those values in mind. So I think that's where that comes from. That's why I love this idea, honestly, it has all those things going for it, but then I think where it's going next and what we're really seeing, the energy that the TruView project is creating is it's more of a proper film festival or film contest for the next year.

(12:29):

Instead of being super connected to our brand, it's like now it seems like it just has this power and momentum to seek out creatives in our industry and give them a platform and give them even more important than a platform is momentum and a prompt. And so I really love that. It's like, okay, now we're transcending our original goal of, hey, help us get our brand out there. And now it's like, oh wow, now we're just helping the community progress and gain new skills and create new interesting content and make the film of their dreams. So yeah, that's kind of its next life. I think that we're hoping season three will start really bringing to the front.

Cole Heilborn (13:22):

That's cool. I mean, you guys are play, you're playing in culture, you're starting to define a culture, and it seems like people are noticing and it's starting to have a life of its own. How many contestants submitted for season two, and how many do you think will attempt to get into season three? Just so maybe folks have an idea of how many filmmakers want to work with Drew on this project?

Chris Pew (13:50):

Yeah, yeah. I think the first season we had less than a hundred applications and we've really pushed it. We were just calling our friends be like, Hey, do you know anyone that wants to join this thing? And that's how we put the first season together and maybe we had 60 or 70 applications, and the next year we had around 160, 170 applications and we picked 10 teams out of those applications. And the process of picking the teams is, as you can see from the participants of last season, is a geographical diversity. We wanted teams from these different communities. The most interesting part about skiing and snowboarding is skiing in Michigan is way different than skiing in Oregon. So that's your first thing that you want to put together. And then next we wanted to look at diversity of discipline. Are we going to want snowboarders and skiers? First season, we made a telemark team. It was radical from Colorado, didn't have Telemark team second season change, is there backcountry skiers? Are there people that are just in resort? Like this past season, we had this guy Ryan from Lake Tahoe who made an incredible film. He's a lifelong snowboarder, and he just wanted to see if he can teach himself how to ski in 30 days. And he filmed his journey and did an incredible job. So you show the learning

Cole Heilborn (15:15):

Progression. I haven't seen that one. I'll have to go back and check it

Chris Pew (15:18):

Out. That one's called Old Dog. Ryan's a really talented commercial filmmaker in his own. So we're also looking for, we're evaluating that, right? Have they made films? Have they demonstrated their ability to build a finished product? But then also we want to make sure we don't only prioritize that, and we have made an emphasis on getting participants in the past couple of years that haven't made a film. That's kind of like the point, if you have an idea and you have something to say, then here's the momentum to bring that to life.

Cole Heilborn (16:03):

What do you want it to become? What's the vision for the contest?

Chris Pew (16:08):

That's a great question. I mean, I think that's evolving too. Like I said, initially, the vision for this, the purpose of this contest was purely brand awareness. We wanted to have people help us get this cool perspective out into the world that we felt like our brand had or has. And today, like I said, I think the vision has evolved to being kind of a standalone film contest in the snow industry that rewards creativity and storytelling. And it's interesting. Do you watch ski films and snowboard films and stuff? So yeah, you're like everyone else in the snow industry. And how old are you, Cole?

Cole Heilborn (17:01):

I'm 30.

Chris Pew (17:02):

You're 30, okay. Yeah, I'm a little older. I'm 38. But you're right in that same kind of era as me, right? We straddled VHS and DVD, and that's how we got ski films. And then today it's Instagram and YouTube. And so when you think about the ski films that we grew up with, they serve so many important purposes in our industry, and one of them was progression. Every fall the ski films would come out and we'd just be glued to 'em. We'd buy the VHS or we'd go to the premiers. And one of the things I was most interested in seeing is like, okay, what's possible? What's everyone doing? What's going on? There weren't twin tips and there's twin tips, and then there's Big Mountain progression was crazy when we were teenagers, just like what was Seth Morrison sha of Con and Ken Kreitler going to do next?

(17:56):

And that's the only place you could see it. So we dissected these ski films, but today it happens in real time all the time on YouTube and Instagram. And it's incredible to be able to watch that if someone does another flip or whatever, or another crazy handrail that no one else had done before, we see it right away. Some of the film companies are guarding their best shots for the fall releases, but even that, it's becoming less common. Some of the most interesting progression is just happening in real time on YouTube. And so I would say that isn't the primary objective of our ski foam being taken care of in the creator sphere of all these incredible athletes. And so I look at the other things that are the ski films added when we were growing up, and I think there's community and there's storytelling.

(18:54):

And I would say the community part of ski films has degraded. I wouldn't say it's been lost, but I mean, the best example of this is the old Warren Miller films, and he was an ambassador to skiing. He's like the elder statesman of ski media. And the films today are not a TREW embodiment of, I don't think I'm being controversial when I'm saying that then they're really more of a corporate exercise. But the films made before the year 2000, especially when Warren was still involved, or even earlier in the early nineties and late eighties where Warren narrated, or even before that when he went on tour and narrated in person, which I wasn't alive for, but his films were an overview of skiing and snowboarding, the thrilling parts of it, like the best athletes doing extreme skiing or freestyle, which is just starting to happen.

(19:52):

Were put right alongside the Bunny Hill scenes and the comedy of learning to ski, the comedy of a rope toe in the Midwest and the comedy of early snowboarding before it was just a nascent part of our industry, the comedy of fashion, all these different parts of the ski industry, you'd see it in one film. And I found that to be exhilarating as a kid, if you're not traveling around to all these different places, you just get to see it all in one spot. And today, just a lot of our different parts of our media world, there's different silos of content and silos of skiing and snowboarding. If all you click on is urban skiing, snowboarding, then that's all you're going to see and you're going to think that's the whole world, which yields really impressive results for that specific community. Now these different silos are really, really growing, but that's one of the outcomes I would say that wasn't anywhere near to anything we were trying to do.

(21:05):

But that's an observation that I had when we were on tour. I was like, wow, we're mashing up all these different communities and we're just putting them on the screen. And in a few cases, in some of the tours, tour stops, we had members from different teams there at the same time hyping each other up. The Dominican snowboarders got to meet one of the filmers from the SCH swack pack from Vermont at the New York City premiere last year, and they were just gassing each other up and they're excited about what they were doing. And I'm just sitting there thinking, man, these are, they would've not only would've been unusual to just even meet in person, they're just in different parts of the country skiing in different parts of the country, but even their content, you're not going to just stumble across the Dominican snowboarder team.

(21:57):

If you're like the sch swack pack, you're ski the East, you're Vermont, you're looking at all types of ski media. But to be able to mash these up and just kind of see what happens and let it become this new product, I think was really interesting. And so this is a really long-winded answer, but that's the vision, is we want this to be the overview of this certain type of writing. And I think the benefit that could come of it is just interesting audience building and better content. These different creators get to meet each other and get motivated by each other and create a product that was bigger than the sum of its parts. And I say that's the goal.

Cole Heilborn (22:53):

Can you share more about how you justify the ROI And I think what's cool is you guys, and this is coming from your mouth, you're a relatively small brand, but you've figured out a way to really make something that punches above your own weight class, which is pretty awesome. Can you share, you're going into season three, obviously season two was worth it. How was it worth it? Why was it worth it?

Chris Pew (23:19):

So there's so many different ways to measure ROI in general, but in this project we looked at, there's the kind of tactical ROI, we can see every person that votes you vote with an email. And so we can just watch this cohort of emails that become customers and we can watch that revenue grow over time. And so the first season, and we can share numbers because your audience would find interesting, a bunch of industry marketing people. First season, I think we captured under 4,000 total emails and that first season's cohort over the past 18 months, I guess that they were customers, lemme think about that. Or 12 months that they were customers have spent $18,000 at TREW. And so that's their lifetime value to date that they'll just, one thing, to your point about us being a small company, one thing that we do really well is we sell a lot of products to a small amount of people. So there's a 50% chance you're going to come back and buy something else if you've bought anything from TREW. And we are able to keep growing that relationship with our small amount of customers. So that number may not feel very big for a lot of bigger brands, but for us, that's a big slice of the pie. So out of those 4,000 emails, a few hundred become customers over the last

Cole Heilborn (24:55):

12 months that you've

Chris Pew (24:55):

Seen over 12 months. Yeah, exactly. Some buy something right away, they vote and they get put in a funnel and they get welcome to TREW or whatever, and some buy something right away and some buy something six months later, some make multiple purchases. But we can just basically take our entire list of customers and just look at, okay, this is how much revenue we've done in this amount of time. Let's zero in on this cohort of TREW to you voters and let's filter for that cohort and see what their activities like. And right away, that's the first ROI metric that we look at to be like, that's the first question when you talk about how do we differentiate ourselves? And I kept saying, yeah, we want to differentiate ourselves. We want to find our customer. This is a great design to find our customer. If you are interested in this project, you're maybe a connected one of the teams that participate in it, or you're just really interested in this kind of niche skiing, snowboarding content, you're probably going to be pretty interested in our products.

(26:03):

So you're already filtering yourself down into this pool of interested people. And that's just a different way of taking all of meta or whatever, everyone who's online and being like, have you ever liked an outdoor company or a ski film company or something like that. We don't have a lot of luck going for these huge kind of awareness campaigns. We have a lot more luck and we're a lot more efficient when we're more targeted. So that's really what this is, is it's like a way to filter in a new list of customers. And then just to give you an idea of how it's grown, season two, we got almost eight or just over 8,000 emails, so almost double the size the email list, only a small amount have become customers yet because we literally just onboarded the voting closed right after Thanksgiving, so just less than two weeks ago.

(26:58):

And so the next stage is let's look at how that segment of customers season one, season two, and how does that grow over time and what's the crossover between those two things? And so that's where it becomes really interesting from just a marketing metric, ROI. And then the other piece that I don't think we'd be doing this project if we didn't have it was the in-person event piece. And that's where you just go out and it's like more traditional grassroots, scrappy marketing where you're just talking with new and existing customers and that is a tremendous value. Or the teams that have participated are telling you, thank you so much for this platform. We had this idea for a ski film that we wanted to do forever, and we just never had the reason to scrap it all to bring it all together. So just hearing that I put that in an ROI category, I don't know what the metric is, but it's like in-person community, goodwill, going out, talking to people, we bring samples, we show people product. That's a pretty small amount of what those in-person events are all about. They're more about establishing relationships and just, it's the old school ski film style where you come to a place and you just talk to people about skiing, which is what skis and snowboarders like to do if they're not skiing or snowboarding. So that's I guess the second bucket.

(28:32):

And then the last bucket of ROI is like, what is the reach? So how can we get this thing digitally or on trade publications or something like that to have a reach a wider audience? And I'd say that's probably the bucket that has been leased, capitalized by us. We are a small enough company. We actually don't have a PR agency of record right now, so we just put out our own press releases. We kind of put these things on YouTube, but we haven't really optimized them yet for YouTube. So I'd say this project really lives in our channels, in our own channels, email and the channels of our partners. And then it lives in person. And I think the next evolution is like, okay, well how do we give this thing a really robust and long lasting meaningful digital life? Just kind of interesting. I feel like it's flipped from a lot of times companies are like, let's make the viral video. And we designed this project to be like, let's get everything we want to value before ever thinking about whether or not this would be a viral video or something. The whole value of it is in the creation, in the application, in the tour, in the engagement of our community, in the voting, all of that is the kind of soul this project. And then maybe the next steps are like, okay, how do we let it grow on its own a little bit?

Cole Heilborn (30:04):

Yeah. So you mentioned three points of ROI to recap emails, the value of just being in person and community building together in person, and then the reach, maybe a fourth one would be the actual content itself. As part of all this, you guys get content to be used in a variety of different ways.

Chris Pew (30:24):

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we get photos, we get photography and we get videos. A lot of parts. This project, I feel like we haven't even totally realized the value of this stuff yet. Now we're just sitting on a treasure trove of really cool user generated content, but that is definitely a big return or value driver for this project.

Cole Heilborn (30:52):

One idea I just had was like, could you do, so you've got all these filmmakers telling these stories, right? 10 filmmakers telling 10 stories or 10 teams rather. Could you do an interview series with each of the filmmakers once their story has been published and you could go deep into why'd you want to make this? How did this idea come to be? And you could create, it could be an interview, it could be a podcast, it could be its own YouTube series. There could be something to dig in a little deeper there.

Chris Pew (31:20):

Yeah, I love that. That's a great segue actually to, we can talk about the changes we're making to season three. Myself and Jess who manages this project on our team, when we sat down and talked about the opportunities with this project, maybe what's missing? How do we improve it? That was a huge part of it is we want to go deeper with each team and with 10 teams in such a short window. It was basically it's felt like we were moving heaven and earth just to get the files from these teams and help them along the way. And so next season or this season that we're accepting applications for, we're going to pick five teams. So we're going to cut down the total amount of films in half and we're going to have them make a slightly longer film. So it'll be a seven minute cap.

(32:13):

And then we're also hiring an executive producer, so a really experienced filmmaker and editor. They'll have some backend knowledge of technical stuff, color correction, audio, stuff like that, exports, but also have some feedback for the process. We're going to design check-ins. So like, Hey, let's look at the storyboard. Well, first of all, here's a template for storyboard that our panel of experts in this EP have put together. Here's the resources, here's something you can read or a YouTube video or whatever. Just like if you need it, let's dive in and we want to give you these resources. If you're experienced filmmaker, no problem, you've probably done this before, but we're going to establish check-ins along the way. Show us some of the selects. Show us your first edit, and we'll be in touch for any problems if they've run into licensing music problems, which has been a struggle in the past or any type of teams, having that short of a window, especially for teams that have never put a film together before they run into all sorts of stuff.

(33:30):

Oh, we had a filmer that then he got called on different project, so we had to scrap something together and we want to be a part of the process, much more a part of the process this season than we have in the past in order to be a resource and help these teams create truly the vision that they've had. And in that sense, it kind of takes on this other component as an incubator. So now it's like we're lifting up, we're helping people, we're pushing them into the next phase of their creative career in skiing and snowboarding. And so as we do that, to get back to your original prompt or question, it's like, yes, we'll establish a closer relationship with these teams, build some behind the scenes footage.

(34:21):

And also the way we're structuring it this season and next season is the winning team, instead of just getting a cash prize and everyone goes on their separate ways, our cash prize will fund the feature length film for next year's tour. So in 2020, like this year coming up, we're going to feature a production of a film that we're supporting from a TREW to you alumni. That's a 10 minute film that we're going to help produce. And then you'll watch five of the contest films, and then the winning film will be chosen by combination of popular vote and a judges panel that we're putting together. So we're bringing in a little bit more of that film festival type of vibe. Instead of pure popular vote, we're going to start judging the films on creativity, storytelling, execution. And then the winning film will get to pick the theme for next year, and there'll be the feature presentation that we're going to produce their film.

(35:17):

So it becomes this cycle of we're going to help them make the film in the contest and whoever wins, we're going to help them with even bigger budget, produce a bigger, more impactful film. So yeah, that's season three and you can already tell where we're going. We've gone pure user generated kind of like, Hey, help fill in the blank what our brand's all about. And now just after two seasons, we've kind of arrived at this like, oh, this is more about uplifting filmers and storytellers and finding these new really valuable, interesting stories that are waiting to be told and skiing and snowboarding that needs to be highlighted and different perspectives and point of views.

Cole Heilborn (36:07):

Yeah,

(36:07):

I mean, I'm sitting here getting excited for you guys, it seems like you're on the ground floor of, or maybe your three floors up of something that could be pretty incredible because I feel like what you're doing is the stuff that I love. It's like how do you take the real world marketing objectives and business needs and how do you couple that with creativity and stories and film, and you guys have come up with a really neat way to bring those worlds together that's working that maybe it doesn't require a huge internal team or a giant agency to help you produce it. It's something that you guys can do and it's working at its barest minimalist point. It's working, so it can only work better from here on out. Right.

Chris Pew (36:51):

Yeah, I appreciate that, Cole. And I mean, I think that's the value of ideas like this for small companies like us is it has to work, but it also has to be something that we're pretty motivated to do. I agree with you. It's an exciting prospect. It does feel like we're definitely on the ground floor or something, and we'll talk again next year though, where the next evolution might lead. It already changed and morphed a lot in the past two years.

Cole Heilborn (37:22):

Chris, anything we haven't talked about that you want to leave with folks? Any last thoughts? Again, I think you guys are doing an awesome job. It's awesome to hear the creativity and how you guys are standing out and making an impact while doing it.

Chris Pew (37:37):

Yeah. Thanks Cole. I appreciate it. I mean, I think we talked about, I'm just excited to be able to talk about this project and I think we covered it pretty extensively. And yeah, no, I love the discussion and thanks for having me on the show. I love the conversations you've had. It's like I've learned a lot from a lot of the other conversations. And a lot of it's in this same vein of subject matter we're talking about. It's like this nuanced look at ROI, right? There's some podcasts that are like, how do you get rich quick vlogging, ROI? And you're like, that's stressful for me. That's kind of Gary V type stuff is like, that's not what we're doing here. And so I appreciate your perspective on stuff. There's like, yeah, you ask ROI questions, but there's also in our industry, ROI is like how did that feel for community?

Cole Heilborn (38:36):

Sometimes ROI is just a high five and a good beer shared

Chris Pew (38:41):

With someone else. That's well put. Yeah,

Cole Heilborn (38:44):

Right on, Chris. Well thanks again. If they want to learn more about the film series, if folks want to apply, if they want to stay tuned for season three, where can they go to learn more?

Chris Pew (38:55):

Yeah, I mean, our website has its own section of the dropdown menu that has information about the TREW to You tour, but certainly subscribing to our email or following along on our channels is where we're constantly updating people about this contest. But yeah, just subscribe to us and we'll tell you about it.

Cole Heilborn (39:20):

Right on. Alright, Chris, well have a great rest of your day. I hope you get up to the hill and get some turns in here.

Chris Pew (39:27):

Yeah, thanks Cole. You too.

‍